If it's off-brand bleach, make sure it's "Ultra" and not "Regular" or else you won't be getting 6% concentration. Even better would be chlorinating liquid from your pool store or hardware or big box store where it is likely 12.5% or 10%, though you can compare pricing to see if it's a good value. Also, if your Calcium Hardness (CH) is low, you can use Cal-Hypo as a source of chlorine for shocking.
I agree with you that you should not raise your CYA at this point, but I also doubt the numbers. Unless you measured it with your own good test kit, they could be wrong. Pool stores do not do these tests properly much of the time.
After you clear your pool, if you need to increase CYA you can get pure CYA from your pool store. As for lowering pH, you use Muriatic Acid which you can get from most hardware and big box stores (often in the stone/concrete section).
Do not dilute the bleach. Just add it slowly over a return flow with the pump running and then brush the side and bottom of the pool where you add it to ensure thorough mixing. Yes, add it multiple times per day if necessary to keep the FC up high -- I'd say 15 ppm FC at least. Of course, you need a proper test kit to measure such high FC levels.
dark green pool - how do I clean it??
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green pools
dark green pool - how do I clean it??
I keep reading algicide is just a preventative and chlorine kills the algae which on paper you can think whatever you want to but anyone trying to clear a dark green pool is a fool if they do not use it.
If you have decided you want to spend a ton of money clearing up a dark green pool then go ahead and dont drain your pool and refill it. When comparing both draining/refilling to clearing up the pool, time-effort-cost all come into effect.
Draining pool-rent pump/hoses $75, chlorine washing walls/floor-$50, cleaning filter once-$free, adding water and chemicals back-$80-150 total $300 to 400
just clearingup pool, clean filter, start adding chlorine start 10 gallons, scrubbing the pool walls/floor, run filter 24/7 until pressure rises or water clears and clean again. depending on how bad dark green is clean filter 4-5 times. Not using any algicide will make the process take even longer. I have seen pools take 24 to 48hrs to clear but when dark green sometimes 6-7 days and by the time you get your electricity bill its crazy! also think about keeping your dark green pool at shock level this could be that long and the chlorine will add up fast in cost. Even if it takes $300 its much longer with alot more work but its normally costs more!
Just my 2 cents
If you have decided you want to spend a ton of money clearing up a dark green pool then go ahead and dont drain your pool and refill it. When comparing both draining/refilling to clearing up the pool, time-effort-cost all come into effect.
Draining pool-rent pump/hoses $75, chlorine washing walls/floor-$50, cleaning filter once-$free, adding water and chemicals back-$80-150 total $300 to 400
just clearingup pool, clean filter, start adding chlorine start 10 gallons, scrubbing the pool walls/floor, run filter 24/7 until pressure rises or water clears and clean again. depending on how bad dark green is clean filter 4-5 times. Not using any algicide will make the process take even longer. I have seen pools take 24 to 48hrs to clear but when dark green sometimes 6-7 days and by the time you get your electricity bill its crazy! also think about keeping your dark green pool at shock level this could be that long and the chlorine will add up fast in cost. Even if it takes $300 its much longer with alot more work but its normally costs more!
Just my 2 cents
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chem geek
- Pool Industry Leader
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dark green pool - how do I clean it??
green pools wrote:I keep reading algicide is just a preventative and chlorine kills the algae which on paper you can think whatever you want to but anyone trying to clear a dark green pool is a fool if they do not use it.
Though it is true that you want to physically remove as much debris as you can from the pool such as leaves, twigs, etc., a pool with dark green algae can most certainly be killed with chlorine alone assuming the CYA level isn't too high (if it is, then a partial drain/refill to lower it is needed). See this post for an example of a dark green pool getting cleared by chlorine in 4 days. Of course, having a good filter helps move things along much faster.
Chlorine will absolutely, positively kill algae, but again you need an FC level that is high enough relative to the CYA level. For a reasonably fast kill, shock with an FC that is 40% of the CYA level and by shocking I mean MAINTAINING that high FC level so adding more chlorine as the FC gets used. It is not a one-time dose.
I suppose there are tens of thousands of "fools" at this forum, The Pool Forum, Trouble Free Pool and elsewhere who are able to maintain their pools using chlorine alone (after proper initial levels of other water chemistry parameters) and who are able to clear algae upon spring opening using chlorine alone as well (again, adding some other water balance chemicals as needed, but not algaecide).
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green pools
dark green pool - how do I clean it??
OK look at the whole picture, a dark green pool is one that has been let go and not taken care of for months. May I ask you how many pools like this have you fixed yourself?
How many of these pools have the people on these other sites gone and fixed?
Its so easy to sit and spout off numbers and tell people things which I want to say are correct but without seeing their pool and equipment along with how long the pool has been let go conditioner and chlorine will fix it but not fast.
with people losing their homes and banks not taking care of the pools until fined pools sit green until people who live around it call in.
So a REAL dark green pool can take 6-7 days your way maybe even more with all the sludge in the pool. I would guess people just love cleaning their filters 4-5-6 times? Oh and if they have the good old sand filter the worst one it could take even longer to clear the pool.
Is electricity cheaper than water over a period of a week or more running your pump 24/7?
If the pool is dark green but only 2-3 days using an algicide is not a bad thing and will cut the cleanup time in half which FAST is what the person wants.
I have done this both ways and in the end if its a REAL dark green pool than dumping your water, chlorine washing the walls, cleaning your filter once and readding water and chemicals would be the most cost efficient way.
How many of these pools have the people on these other sites gone and fixed?
Its so easy to sit and spout off numbers and tell people things which I want to say are correct but without seeing their pool and equipment along with how long the pool has been let go conditioner and chlorine will fix it but not fast.
with people losing their homes and banks not taking care of the pools until fined pools sit green until people who live around it call in.
So a REAL dark green pool can take 6-7 days your way maybe even more with all the sludge in the pool. I would guess people just love cleaning their filters 4-5-6 times? Oh and if they have the good old sand filter the worst one it could take even longer to clear the pool.
Is electricity cheaper than water over a period of a week or more running your pump 24/7?
If the pool is dark green but only 2-3 days using an algicide is not a bad thing and will cut the cleanup time in half which FAST is what the person wants.
I have done this both ways and in the end if its a REAL dark green pool than dumping your water, chlorine washing the walls, cleaning your filter once and readding water and chemicals would be the most cost efficient way.
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green pools
dark green pool - how do I clean it??
I never talked about maintaining your pool with algicicde I only bought it up with dark green pools. I think the most important thing to remember is people want their pools fixed fast so they can swim on a holiday weekend/birthday and of course during the summertime.
Every green pool cleanup will be different in the amount of time it takes to clean it up depending on how long its been green, how good is their equipment and keeping chemicals correct. So with all of this and needing it fast an algicide will help speed up the process and save money doing it.
Every green pool cleanup will be different in the amount of time it takes to clean it up depending on how long its been green, how good is their equipment and keeping chemicals correct. So with all of this and needing it fast an algicide will help speed up the process and save money doing it.
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green pools
dark green pool - how do I clean it??
have you ever seen the bottom of a drained dark green pool thats been sitting for months? please go ask all the guru's at the other sites the same thing and let me know the answer please.
please note I am not trying to argue just stating fact sometimes algicide is good to use....
please note I am not trying to argue just stating fact sometimes algicide is good to use....
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chem geek
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dark green pool - how do I clean it??
The example I showed in the earlier post was a pool opened on spring opening. The examples below from TFP are for more seriously fouled pools such as those neglected for months or even years as is now being more frequently seen with foreclosures. I am using links for the photos because most are too large to be posted on this forum. As I wrote, it is very important to physically remove as much debris as possible. Sometimes pool services use ProTeam® System Support to raise debris to the surface where it can be more easily skimmed/removed (this product also produces hydrogen peroxide which is an oxidizer). More seriously fouled pools take longer to clear, but algaecide does not oxidize algae so it does not get rid of it. It can only slow down or stop algae growth, but in a pool that has been neglected for months the algae amount is in stasis since all algae nutrients will have been taken up by the algae. So algae dies and new algae grows, but the total does not continue to climb in such pools. There is a limit of 6 links per post so I have multiple posts.
Before
After
Before
After
(continued on next post...)
Before
After
Before
After
(continued on next post...)
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chem geek
- Pool Industry Leader
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dark green pool - how do I clean it??
Example of debris
So when you say you use an alagecide, what specifically are you using? Some phosphate remover products, for example, have clarifiers in them to help clear the water from the cloudiness produced by lanthanum carbonate so the clarifier can sometimes help clear a pool faster if the water is cloudy from suspended particles and the filter is poor (say, a sand filter instead of DE).
So to be clear, with a seriously fouled pool one wants to first remove any physical debris (leaves, twigs, etc.) and if a lot of the algae is settled then one can also carefully vacuum-to-waste. Alternatively, one can use the ProTeam® System Support product to raise debris to the surface for removal (and to start oxidizing algae with the hydrogen peroxide in the product). In extreme situations, one can replace the water completely which can be less expensive in some cases.
After physical removal of debris or more easily removed settled algae, then one can use an oxidizer to begin clearing the pool and can use filtration/backwashing/cleaning of the filters. The least expensive and very effective oxidizer is chlorine. Again, algaecide is not an oxidizer. Chlorine will also kill algae as well as oxidize it. The dead algae will turn from green to gray and it is this gray/cloudy stage that is usually the longest phase to clear. Some people use clarifiers (e.g. GLB® Clear Blue®) or flocculants (e.g. OMNI Liquid Floc Plus) to speed up this stage. Though not necessary and not always effective and are extra cost, they do speed things up when they work.
So when you say you use an alagecide, what specifically are you using? Some phosphate remover products, for example, have clarifiers in them to help clear the water from the cloudiness produced by lanthanum carbonate so the clarifier can sometimes help clear a pool faster if the water is cloudy from suspended particles and the filter is poor (say, a sand filter instead of DE).
So to be clear, with a seriously fouled pool one wants to first remove any physical debris (leaves, twigs, etc.) and if a lot of the algae is settled then one can also carefully vacuum-to-waste. Alternatively, one can use the ProTeam® System Support product to raise debris to the surface for removal (and to start oxidizing algae with the hydrogen peroxide in the product). In extreme situations, one can replace the water completely which can be less expensive in some cases.
After physical removal of debris or more easily removed settled algae, then one can use an oxidizer to begin clearing the pool and can use filtration/backwashing/cleaning of the filters. The least expensive and very effective oxidizer is chlorine. Again, algaecide is not an oxidizer. Chlorine will also kill algae as well as oxidize it. The dead algae will turn from green to gray and it is this gray/cloudy stage that is usually the longest phase to clear. Some people use clarifiers (e.g. GLB® Clear Blue®) or flocculants (e.g. OMNI Liquid Floc Plus) to speed up this stage. Though not necessary and not always effective and are extra cost, they do speed things up when they work.
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green pools
dark green pool - how do I clean it??
I would guess you have not gone to a green swamp pool and fixed it yourself? I would suggest doing this so you can get first hand experience at it and understand everything that really goes on.
This is why I first wrote about a dark green pool and said the cheapestest way would be to drain pool, chlorinewash walls/floor, clean filter, refill and add chemicals. Can be done within 48 hrs so you save time and money and enjoy the pool.
When cleaning up a green swamp theres alot more time, effort, money envolved which is less pool time and unhappy kids.
Like I said before I have gone to green swamp pools before and have done it both ways chlorine only and chlorine and algicide and guess what using algicide is faster.
another thing, why do people want to wait until dead algea falls to the floor so they can vacuum it to waste using a sand filter when you can have a DE filter or cartridge filter that catches it when filtering?
I could not see all the pictures but which one of them where not extreme situations to replace the water completely? 20,000 gallons around here is $70-80 tops
This is why I first wrote about a dark green pool and said the cheapestest way would be to drain pool, chlorinewash walls/floor, clean filter, refill and add chemicals. Can be done within 48 hrs so you save time and money and enjoy the pool.
When cleaning up a green swamp theres alot more time, effort, money envolved which is less pool time and unhappy kids.
Like I said before I have gone to green swamp pools before and have done it both ways chlorine only and chlorine and algicide and guess what using algicide is faster.
another thing, why do people want to wait until dead algea falls to the floor so they can vacuum it to waste using a sand filter when you can have a DE filter or cartridge filter that catches it when filtering?
I could not see all the pictures but which one of them where not extreme situations to replace the water completely? 20,000 gallons around here is $70-80 tops
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chem geek
- Pool Industry Leader
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dark green pool - how do I clean it??
The water rates where I live are here where water is fairly expensive. Houses with typical landscaping are usually well into Tier 2. 20,000 gallons is about 27 CCF and might push one in to Tier 3. Nevertheless, if I assume all Tier2 ($6.78/CCF) for the pool filling, then that would be about $180. Most of the cleanups on the forums were around $50 in chlorine, but you are correct that they take more time and effort if you use chlorine alone without clarifiers or flocculants, but I dispute that they are more expensive.
I don't think we disagree that for extremely fouled pools, a drain/refill (if the water table allows it so that the pool does not crack or pop up) would be a reasonable option. The reason some people let things settle (or use a flocculant) and vacuum-to-waste is that it is faster to remove a lot of dead algae and other debris rather than having to circulate via multiple turnovers to the filter for backwashing/cleaning. One turnover only has 63% of the pool water go through the filter. Also, unless one has an oversized filter, it can rise in pressure too much too quickly requiring frequent multiple backwashing/cleaning. Also, some people have cartridge filters and they are harder to clean than a simple backwashing of a sand filter.
I don't service pools, but read the reports from those that do. The forums have mostly residential pool owners, but also have many service people reporting. The service people primarily use additional chemicals for speed, not for cost. You didn't answer with what algaecide you are using that is giving you good results. What algaecide do you use?
I don't think we disagree that for extremely fouled pools, a drain/refill (if the water table allows it so that the pool does not crack or pop up) would be a reasonable option. The reason some people let things settle (or use a flocculant) and vacuum-to-waste is that it is faster to remove a lot of dead algae and other debris rather than having to circulate via multiple turnovers to the filter for backwashing/cleaning. One turnover only has 63% of the pool water go through the filter. Also, unless one has an oversized filter, it can rise in pressure too much too quickly requiring frequent multiple backwashing/cleaning. Also, some people have cartridge filters and they are harder to clean than a simple backwashing of a sand filter.
I don't service pools, but read the reports from those that do. The forums have mostly residential pool owners, but also have many service people reporting. The service people primarily use additional chemicals for speed, not for cost. You didn't answer with what algaecide you are using that is giving you good results. What algaecide do you use?
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green pools
dark green pool - how do I clean it??
kind of weird you live in northern cali I live in so cal we get our water from you but ours is cheaper?
only someone with a sand filter would say that statement, as backwashing a DE filter is fast and easy 5mns and your going again.
chem geek are you missing the picture this is what they want FASTER!
Is electricity really cheap where you live because running your pump 24/7 until clear for a few days can cost a lot of money when you think how many people run AC and whatever else making them also go from teir to teir on that bill and this has been my point.
The reason some people let things settle (or use a flocculant) and vacuum-to-waste is that it is faster to remove a lot of dead algae and other debris rather than having to circulate via multiple turnovers to the filter for backwashing/cleaning. One turnover only has 63% of the pool water go through the filter. Also, unless one has an oversized filter, it can rise in pressure too much too quickly requiring frequent multiple backwashing/cleaning.
only someone with a sand filter would say that statement, as backwashing a DE filter is fast and easy 5mns and your going again.
They primarily use additional chemicals for speed, not for cost.
chem geek are you missing the picture this is what they want FASTER!
Is electricity really cheap where you live because running your pump 24/7 until clear for a few days can cost a lot of money when you think how many people run AC and whatever else making them also go from teir to teir on that bill and this has been my point.
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chem geek
- Pool Industry Leader
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dark green pool - how do I clean it??
Yes, it is ironic that water sent down to L.A. is cheaper, but where I live north of S.F. the water comes from the Russian River and from local watershed reservoirs. It does not come from Hetch-Hetchy that is used by S.F. and the peninsula (south of S.F.) and is the water you get via the Aquaduct (along with Colorado River water -- see this interesting link). The water rates in S.F. are less than the Tier 2 rates I quoted (see this link) where the effective rate for filling a pool would be $4.60 per 100 cubic feet (748 gallons) so for 20,000 gallons would be $123. Mid-peninsula rates (shown here) are also high at $6.15 above 26 CCF (so again, for those with homes that have landscaping as that usually puts one up at least at the $5.45 11-25 CCF range).
I agree that cleaning some filters is easier -- I was mostly referring to cartridge filters that are the bigger pain in the behind. In my own pool I have oversized cartridge filters (340 square feet) that I only need to clean once a year (the pressure doesn't even rise over the season or perhaps rises by 1-2 PSI at the most when comparing at 48 GPM with the solar on). I avoid getting algae by maintaining an appropriate FC/CYA ratio -- prevention is much easier than fixing a problem after-the-fact. My pool is 16,000 gallons (shown here and here).
Electricity rates are also high where the marginal rate is around 40 cents per kilowatt-hour in the higher tiers where one would usually be in a larger home with a pool pump. However, even at 2000 Watts for the pump (mine is usually at 1500 Watts for solar on and 275 Watts for solar off with my Pentair IntelliFlo variable speed/flow pump), 24 hours would be almost $20, but that would probably be at least 3-4 turnovers (95-98% of pool water goes through the filter) assuming 42-56 GPM for 20,000 gallons so a pretty decent and fast clearing if the filter caught everything. Of course, with pumps at varying speeds you could run at a lower speed, but that would take longer to clear a pool. Again, the clearing in this case has to do with circulation and filtration and has nothing to do with algicide.
However, you still haven't told me the algicide that you use that you say makes things clear up faster -- please tell me what it is you are using. Again, I can see where a flocculant with vacuum-to-waste can be faster and more efficient and where a clarifier with filtration/backwashing/cleaning can be faster IF the filtration is poor (a clarifier does not speed up clearing if what is in the water gets caught in the filter anyway without a clarifier), but where does the algicide come in to help if the algae is already dead from the chlorine? The only time I've seen that helping is when the CYA level is high because in that situation the chlorine won't be very effective at killing algae, but if the CYA level is high one should dilute the water anyway to lower it so that could be done first. By the way, when one shocks with chlorine, one doesn't just do small additions nor a one-time dose -- one MAINTAINS a shock-level of FC that is 40% of the CYA level (another reason why one should start off with a lower CYA level by dilution, if necessary).
I don't want you to think I'm against using extra products for specific purposes. After someone with a phosphate remover product came over and I tried their product as an experiment, it severely clouded the pool. Since I wanted my wife to be able to swim the next day, I used a clarifier and overnight the pool was clear. Had I not used the clarifier, it would have taken longer to clear and might have remained slightly dull for some time since lanthanum carbonate percipitate does not clump well (i.e. tends to form more of a milky suspension). This is why some products, such as Natural Chemistry® PHOSfree™, have clarifiers in them to avoid severe clouding (you add them to the skimmer so the precipitate is consolidated and gets caught in the filter right away). If one uses PolyQuat algicide, then that is also a (weak) clarifier as well, but it is the clarifying attribute that clears a pool faster, not the algicidal properties unless, as I wrote, you have high CYA so that the chlorine will not kill the algae fast enough.
I agree that cleaning some filters is easier -- I was mostly referring to cartridge filters that are the bigger pain in the behind. In my own pool I have oversized cartridge filters (340 square feet) that I only need to clean once a year (the pressure doesn't even rise over the season or perhaps rises by 1-2 PSI at the most when comparing at 48 GPM with the solar on). I avoid getting algae by maintaining an appropriate FC/CYA ratio -- prevention is much easier than fixing a problem after-the-fact. My pool is 16,000 gallons (shown here and here).
Electricity rates are also high where the marginal rate is around 40 cents per kilowatt-hour in the higher tiers where one would usually be in a larger home with a pool pump. However, even at 2000 Watts for the pump (mine is usually at 1500 Watts for solar on and 275 Watts for solar off with my Pentair IntelliFlo variable speed/flow pump), 24 hours would be almost $20, but that would probably be at least 3-4 turnovers (95-98% of pool water goes through the filter) assuming 42-56 GPM for 20,000 gallons so a pretty decent and fast clearing if the filter caught everything. Of course, with pumps at varying speeds you could run at a lower speed, but that would take longer to clear a pool. Again, the clearing in this case has to do with circulation and filtration and has nothing to do with algicide.
However, you still haven't told me the algicide that you use that you say makes things clear up faster -- please tell me what it is you are using. Again, I can see where a flocculant with vacuum-to-waste can be faster and more efficient and where a clarifier with filtration/backwashing/cleaning can be faster IF the filtration is poor (a clarifier does not speed up clearing if what is in the water gets caught in the filter anyway without a clarifier), but where does the algicide come in to help if the algae is already dead from the chlorine? The only time I've seen that helping is when the CYA level is high because in that situation the chlorine won't be very effective at killing algae, but if the CYA level is high one should dilute the water anyway to lower it so that could be done first. By the way, when one shocks with chlorine, one doesn't just do small additions nor a one-time dose -- one MAINTAINS a shock-level of FC that is 40% of the CYA level (another reason why one should start off with a lower CYA level by dilution, if necessary).
I don't want you to think I'm against using extra products for specific purposes. After someone with a phosphate remover product came over and I tried their product as an experiment, it severely clouded the pool. Since I wanted my wife to be able to swim the next day, I used a clarifier and overnight the pool was clear. Had I not used the clarifier, it would have taken longer to clear and might have remained slightly dull for some time since lanthanum carbonate percipitate does not clump well (i.e. tends to form more of a milky suspension). This is why some products, such as Natural Chemistry® PHOSfree™, have clarifiers in them to avoid severe clouding (you add them to the skimmer so the precipitate is consolidated and gets caught in the filter right away). If one uses PolyQuat algicide, then that is also a (weak) clarifier as well, but it is the clarifying attribute that clears a pool faster, not the algicidal properties unless, as I wrote, you have high CYA so that the chlorine will not kill the algae fast enough.
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Dmoney
dark green pool - how do I clean it??
Chem Geek wins by TKO
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mistyd22
dark green pool - how do I clean it??
I am curious when clearing up my pool using bleach and borax, do I shock it with bleach first, then add the borax, vise versa, or at the same time?
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