LED retrofit?

[SunnyD]

Hi

We just bought a house and inherited the pool that came with it. I’ve never owned one before and have been trying to get up to speed.

One definitive answer I can’t get is for my pool light. It is currently not working so I was going to change the bulb. I asked if I could put an LED bulb instead of what is in there currently. It is an older pool with a halogen light. I asked the local shop and they told me that this is not possible and that I will have to change out the whole fixture. I checked online and apparently, I can just swap to an LED bulb. The current fixture is a sta-rite. I’d rather pay $200 as opposed to $1500.

I don’t want to order one and realize that the pool store was right all along (they have not seen the light and don’t know what model it is).

Thanks

[MonkeyMan]

OK. Let me start out by saying that I am not a pool professional. So, the comments here could (should?) be substatiated by other sources (others on the forum or other websites). Also, this response is USA-centric as that is where I am located.

When you consider changing the bulb in your fixture to an LED bulb, the first three things you have to figure out:

1) What voltage is going to your fixture?
- Many (most?) pool lights use a step-down transformer to get 120VAC down to lower voltage
- For example, my transformer has multiple taps to provide 12, 13 or 14 VAC
- This is AC, alternating current, NOT DC, direct current
- I have heard of old pools that have 120 VAC to the light.
- I am not a pool professional so I have not seen one, but I have heard from several sources that they exist.
- If I had a pool with a 120 VAC light, I would install a transformer, change the bulb or fixture as necessary,
and convert it over to low-voltage !!!

2) What is the attachment type for the bulb?
- Does the fixture use an A-series bulb connection
- A-series is the screw-in type base you have in your house
- See the Wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-series_light_bulb

3) How many lumens does a typical pool light emit?
- Using the wattage rating of the old bulb, there are charts that can estimate the lumens fairly accurately
- See this page:
https://www.voltlighting.com/article-watts-or-lumens-how-to-choose-the-right-led-bulb-replacement/p/article-watts-or-lumens

You need to work from the lumens number because LED bulb are much more efficient. Therefore, a 100 watt LED bulb (if you could find one) will be much brighter than a 100 watt incadescent bulb. This is because much of the wattage in an incandescent bulb is lost as heat.

If you see an LED bulb that states 100 watt equivalent, do not confuse that to be a bulb that draws 100 watts of power. What that package is really saying is that the LED bulb gives off the equivalent lumens of light as a 100 incandescent bulb emits. Usually the comparison is referenced against incandescent bulbs. But, no matter, again there are charts to help you figure out the lumens you need.

Now that you know the lumens, be aware that color temperature of the bulb may be different. Do not confuse this with heat temperature. This is the color spectrum that the lamp emits. In a pool this isn't as important as in the house.

This video is actually about camera settings. But if you skip over the the 1-minute mark, it has a nice explanation of color temperature.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48c02L_nHZc

Once you have the voltage, the base-type, and the lumen requirement, you could use an LED bulb as an alternate. Don't forget, they draw less power and give off less heat so you are moving away from the light fixtures maximum tested parameters which should be OK.

Now that all said. If you have a low voltage system and it is old or looks bad, you may want to change the transformer. People will tell you that a low voltage system can't hurt you and that's reasonable. Where you get into trouble is with a double-fault.

There was a incident in Miami several years ago. The ground? wire on the pool was bad AND the transformer internally shorted. I don't recall all the specifics. You may be able to find it on the web. Generally, what I recall, the shorted transformer put higher voltage out to the pool light. With no ground wire, it became dangerous. Again, I may be recalling the specifics vaguely but... "safety first". It may not be common scenario, but....

So, you may want to get an electician to verify your bond wire, ground wire, and transformer.

One last thing (like Columbo). I had my pool refinished several years ago. I put in a Hayward multi-color LED light. The light fixture alone was around $550. It last 16 months and died. It just blinks. Amazing that it can cost so much and be so crappy. After it failed, I looked on Amazon to replace it and found it to have a 1 star rating.

Also, a "pool professional" (in business over 25 years) told a friend of mine that he did not need to fix the broken connection to tie the bond grid back to ground (at the pool pump) because a plastic low-voltage light was being installed. He said he installs them all the time like that. My friend stopped the job and had a electrician fix it.

From what we could find out from other sources, a plastic, low voltage light does not negate the need for bonding and grounding. Bonding and grounding is tied to pool deck rebar, exit railings, ladders, pool light niche (if metal), and pool light trim ring (if metal). Basically, anything that is metal.

AGAIN, LEGAL DISCLAIMER, I am not offering advice, just explaining some generalities. I am NOT a POOL PROFESSIONAL or an ELECTRICIAN.

Regards,
MM

[MonkeyMan]

One more thing (Columbo again), on further thought, it is NOT the A-series of bulb that is so important, it's the socket-type.

The A-series dictates the general shape and size of the bulb which is important too, you need room for your new bulb.

But the socket-type is paramount. The socket type in houses is E26 (E27 for 220VAC countries). Check out this link:
https://www.hunker.com/12441309/what-is-an-e26-lightbulb-socket

You may have another socket-type; There are many types out there.

Regards,
MM

[SunnyD]

Wow, thanks for that detailed response! It's too cold to get in there now but when I have the heater running, I'll take the light out and explore the guts.

Thanks again!

[MonkeyMan]

No problem, glad you found it useful.

Back to the bonding and grounding. This stuff is no joke. You inherited a pool and do not know its history\condition. It would be worth replacing the transformer and checking all wiring.

The real issue is finding a "professional" that knows their stuff well. There are good contractors out there and there are plenty of hacks. Luckily, I know enough about this stuff to ask the right questions and verify the work. However, if you do not have that type of background, you have to hope you found a good contractor\electrician.

- The case in Miami, it seems the electrician mis-wired the transformer (one point of multiple failure)
- As I mentioned earlier, my friend had to stop a job and bring an electrician against the advice of the pool contractor.
- A very capable friend hired a plumber because he just didn't have time to do all the work on a bathroom remodel. He had to take the tub drain apart and fix it because the plumber assembled it incorrectly.
- I've had to fix just about everything I hired someone to work on
- Holmes On Homes made a whole TV series based on cleaning up after incapable contractors

However, those challenges aside, safety first. Maybe you can check with the city inspectors for a recommendation of contractor. There ARE GOOD contractors out there and believe me they don't like bad contractors either.

As to the hazards of incorrect bonding and grounding, read this article and watch the video at the bottom of the page:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/swimming-pool-safety-electrocutions-raise-alarm-summer-n112521

Here are couple of searches to plug into Google. Only search on the two or three word phrase, not the dash and description after the dash
pool electrocution - for general info (this description, including the dash, is not part of the search terms)
pool electrocution Miami - for the specific Miami case (this description, including the dash, is not part of the search terms)

I am not trying to be an alarmist or make you afraid of your pool. HEY. I swim in my pool and use the metal ladder! With the pump running. With the light off. With the light on (before the crappy Hayward died). So, do thousands (millions?) of other people.

Regards,
MM

[MonkeyMan]

Also, not sure if you're aware of this.

The light usually has a "service loop" that allows you to get the light up to the pool deck to work on it.

Service loop = slack cable looped\bundled behind the light

Regards,
MM

[MonkeyMan]

Thinking about my earlier post, I realize that I did not clarify why there are 3 low-voltage outputs on the transformer. As I stated previously, the outputs are 12VAC, 13VAC, and 14VAC.

You are not going to find a 13VAC or 14VAC bulb. The low-voltage system is a 12VAC system (at least mine is). The higher voltages are to deal with voltage loss through long cable runs. The idea here is that if you have a 12V bulb, you want 12 volts to arrive at the bulb base. A long cable run can give you a "voltage drop" due to resistive losses. So, if you lose 1 volt through the cable, select the 13 volt tap. 13-1=12.

That said, LED lamp fixtures like the Hayward multi-color can run on 14VAC regardless of cable length. My electrician did not know this and he specializes in pools. I informed him. The reason for this is that LEDs are DC devices (usually around 3 - 3.5 VDC). The pool lamp assembly includes a switch-mode voltage regulator and rectifier that converts the 12VAC to the DC voltage needed for high-output LEDs. The switch-mode voltage regulator uses pulse-width-modulation to adjust the DC output voltage. So, whether 12, 13 or 14VAC, the regulator adapts. The caveat here is that it still expects 12VAC. That is due to wattage requirements. So, if the LED fixture is on a long cable, the higher voltage is required. But even on a short cable the 14VAC is OK.

For and incandescent or halogen bulb the higher voltage might shorten its life. Again, unless the cable is long. There are Pool Pros on here that know a lot more about this stuff than I do so maybe someone else can clarify.

Here is an excerpt from the Hayward multi-color light assembly manual:

I am not a Pool Pro so, I could be off-base. If so, please, anyone provide the corrections. This is just my lone observation.

Regards,
MM