Algae in condominium Homeowner's Association pool

[Henry_R]

Good. The reason I asked is that the instructions on that filter reads something about a bleed valve on the pump. The only valve I saw was on top of the filter and I left it open until the water began to squirt out then closed it. Pressure remains at about 2.5 tick marks past 10 so I'm guessing that 12.5psi.
I think they're 1-psi per mark.

Re the wiring cover: I found out the hard and painful way. I had wet fingers and got zapped whilst switching the switch. I will look for a cover for the wiring ASAP.

The filter continues to work normally. My neighbor is going to have a cow when she finds out what I've done. She'll thank me in the end, but intially she'll be mad I know it. It was either turn on the pump or waste 2.75 gallons of bleach and $8. The water is beginning to become turquoise vs the deep green it was even earlier this morning so something is working. Either the pump is doing it's thing or that second does of chlorine, or both. I'm for both actually.

Ok, next question: the filter instruction mention three different positions for the valve. It mentions backwash position, filter position on how to do initial startup. Then on the part about cleaning, it mentions turning it to rinse position. The pictures I posted before have a closeup of the instructions. Link in one of the earlier emails. I'm not sure if the resolution has been reduced too far to read it.

How do I figure out where the rinse position or if this valve has one? There are no markings on the valve except the words "lock" and "open" for the rotation. The handle goes up and down as well as rotates.

The down position is backwash, up is filter. Any ideas for rinse? I can try to post a better valve handle picture if you want.

Finally, how do I set the timer to trigger it on and off? There is a clip on thing that has a set screw.
I'm guessing I put that on the timer, but shouldn't there be one for on and one for off?

[Denali]

Good. The reason I asked is that the instructions on that filter reads something about a bleed valve on the pump. The only valve I saw was on top of the filter and I left it open until the water began to squirt out then closed it. Pressure remains at about 2.5 tick marks past 10 so I'm guessing that 12.5psi.
I think they're 1-psi per mark.

Re the wiring cover: I found out the hard and painful way. I had wet fingers and got zapped whilst switching the switch. I will look for a cover for the wiring ASAP.

The filter continues to work normally. My neighbor is going to have a cow when she finds out what I've done. She'll thank me in the end, but intially she'll be mad I know it. It was either turn on the pump or waste 2.75 gallons of bleach and $8. The water is beginning to become turquoise vs the deep green it was even earlier this morning so something is working. Either the pump is doing it's thing or that second does of chlorine, or both. I'm for both actually.

Ok, next question: the filter instruction mention three different positions for the valve. It mentions backwash position, filter position on how to do initial startup. Then on the part about cleaning, it mentions turning it to rinse position. The pictures I posted before have a closeup of the instructions. Link in one of the earlier emails. I'm not sure if the resolution has been reduced too far to read it.

How do I figure out where the rinse position or if this valve has one? There are no markings on the valve except the words "lock" and "open" for the rotation. The handle goes up and down as well as rotates.

The down position is backwash, up is filter. Any ideas for rinse? I can try to post a better valve handle picture if you want.

Finally, how do I set the timer to trigger it on and off? There is a clip on thing that has a set screw.
I'm guessing I put that on the timer, but shouldn't there be one for on and one for off?

Sorry to hear about the zap. I was always told that 110v would give you a good jolt but a 220v (which you have) has the potential to kill you.

The rinse setting should be one position to the left of filter. Let's see if I can include a URL http://www.poolhelpforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=8097

Yes, there should be two trippers for the time clock. The newer ones will have a silver one for ON and gold one for OFF. I think I have that right. That is just off the top of my head.

[Henry_R]

There is only one tripper then. Drat! I was barefoot and my hand wet. I guess I am lucky.
I'm used high voltage DC in my hobby of guitar amplifiers with vacuum tubes so I should know better than that. With DC in the 450-500V range if you touch it, it can knock you across the room. No kidding!
I've never had the displeasure, but I've been zapped by charged filter caps before; luckily with the power off.

I didn't realise it's 220VAC for the timer though. I think I might have only touched one wire so I didn't get a full bite. It only fealt like a zap if you're screwingin a lightbulb and touch the threads so it wasn't bad or anything. I've had worse zaps from ground mismatch in old tube junk. Touch two different potentials of AC and zap. Even 50V can hurt.

The valve is not a multiport valve. The picture in that thread (or one of them) shows a multi position handle. This one only goes up and down with a rotation only for locking.
I think it might not have a rinse position.

I found the Triton II model TR60 owners manual online and read through it.
Ours is old but not as old as I thought.

[Denali]

Ok, looked at the pics again. It is a slide valve so you only have filter and backwash positions. I think I"ve been answering too many posts and starting to have them blend together.

Home Depot sells Intermatic time clocks so they may sell the trippers also.

[Guest]

Friend, I feel your pain, I too work at a pool complex that is privately owned and trully under funded. I also have a board of well intentioned but poorly informed people who have no desire to truly learn about pools. I will list here some of the very inexpensive tricks we have come up with to make our lives a little easier.
For yourself ( maybe see if they will pay for it) enroll in a CPO course (Ceritified Pool Operator) I took it several years ago and learned a great deal it cost $275.00 and took 2 days.

Now for people who don't understand pools, get them to place thier faith in you and your judgement Right now with your pool thier really isn't much you can do that will hurt anything.

To help combat your algae, try this trick that works so well for us
1. To help circulate your water and keep your clorine moving, drop a sump pump in the water, get one with a long cord so that you can get it as deep as possible while keeping the plug dry. Chlorine is heavy and will sink to the deepest parts. moving water also helps to deter mosquitoes.

2. If you have a portable vacuum system remember it is a small filtration system, and can help keep it clean. We will run ours as a filter system a great deal before our season starts ( we are in the chicago area and our pools our only open Memorial to Labor days), so we have a lot of closed time where we have to keep up with water, mechanicals etc.

3. Sometimes the easiest, least expensive thing to do, is dump all of your water, give the pool a good scrubbing. If your main is non functioning, use the sump pump to empty the pool, so what if it takes several days. its a good way also of draining out the accumulated water during the scrubbing, and it places no strain whatsoever on your filtration system. We do this every spring on all of our pools. IT works beautifully.

4 VGB compliancy does not necessarily have to be expensive, 2 of our pools are 25 years older than yours, and we brought them up to code for 700 each. Find yourself a good reputable company, have them out and explain your entire situation with them. Even if you are not financially able to do much right at the moment. Having quotes and a company that is familiar with your situtation is always a plus. The more information you have and the more answers you are capable of giving will help with the faith and trust issues you are encountering.

5. A plastic bucket. We use chlorine tablets to clorinate during our season. In the off season, we drill 10-12 holes in a plastic bucket and fill it with tablets and hang it in the water, with the sump pump running, we get some clorination, and some circulation, for a substantially lower electric bill. The bucket trick will help you right now in killing your algae, and after its gone it will help keep your levels in control, and reduce operating costs substantially.

6. Getting your levels to where they are supposed to be wil cost some money, maintaining them will cost some but much less. It will be less expensive in the long run to keep your levels correct. It will be cheaper and far less damaging to all aspects of your pool to keep your water good then trying to recover from the situation you find yourselves in now. Proper levels are far more than just bather comfort, the help with the pool structure, piping, valves, everything Water that is out of balance will eat away the pool walls, corrode metal pipes, scaling. Goold levels are the first and best maintenance trick you have at your disposal.

7. The old line about a boat being a hole in the water you throw money into, A pool is a hole in the ground filled with water that you throw money into. That is a fact of pool life. But carefully spent money now and in the future will always be a wise investment 3000-5000 a year now, is far better than a 150, 000 spent in five years for a overhaul of the entire system. Believe me 150,000 is a very very low number for a commercial pool rebuild.

8. Everything on your pool is there to be operated, use it, manipulate it, open it, close it, turn it on, turn it off. Left alone, pool mechanicals will cease to function, valves rust closed or open, switches and contacts corrode, leaks occur, seals fail etc ad nauseum.

9. As for your board president not wanting to run the pump. Thats what it's there for, while pump and motor are physically connected, the motor DOES NOT come in contact with water, only the pump, and algae will not hurt the pump. Getting clorinated water going threw the pump would be a very good idea, it will kill anything that might be growing in it. And the filtration system, is there to filter, it won't hurt anything in that either, as a matter of fact, not using it could be detrimental to it.

[mr_clean]

just a note,
you might need to dig into your own pocket book & cover some of these expenses as the electrical bill to clear this up along with the chemicals you are going to use are going to be alot money. (not trying to be hurtfull just real) but if this is important to you & maybe others, you & them will do it.

Then theres a reason the pool is getting algae (most likely) THE LEAK and with this comes "loosing the chemicals added" do to water loss. So even when cleared of algae the chemicals will cost more than normal.
The chemicals you would loose "CYA which is conditioner" & "chlorine" which help fight algae.The other factors helping prevent algae, the filter being clean & the amount of time each day you allow it to run & normal brushing.

when cleaning this mess you will need to start by running the filter 24/7 until clear.
only stopping to backwash the sand filter when the pressure rises which will be alot but can be done with someone around.
Adding chemicals needed and for now would be to get CYA up to level 50-60ppm & chlorine at shock level (your pool) 20ppm or higher. Then you need to recheck the pools chemicals 2-3 times a day to keep the chlorine at shock level (so more chlorine). Know normally it drops faster at the begining but then slows up & holds as the pools clears up. With you having a leak & loosing water as fast as you have stated this could be slower. Trying to add any other chemicals right now is not important (for-now)
When chemicals are in & pool is running you need to brush the pool & know the more the better.

Have you looked around for the cause of the leak?
is there water around the equipment when it's running?
when backwashing do you see where the water goes? or is it piped intothe ground?
sometimes when the multiport valve has a bad spider gasket it will leak water into the backwash area inside of the multiport valve and you loose water. This spider gasket is not expensive & not hard to replace.

[Henry_R]

Ok, looked at the pics again. It is a slide valve so you only have filter and backwash positions. I think I"ve been answering too many posts and starting to have them blend together.

Home Depot sells Intermatic time clocks so they may sell the trippers also.

Heheh, I do that times.
Don't worry it happens. Thanks for replying.

The one place we didn't go today is Home Depot. I'll have to see if the local HD stores have the timers and if thy carry the cover for the electrical connections.

I bought a decent test kit from Leslie pool supply(I know I should get really good one, but I need it now not it a week), and found some 10% chlorine shock and a leaf skimmer at Lowes, but we didn't get to Home Depot. I also got three tabs of trichlor. I'm considering using them in the chlorine/bromine feeder once I get things where they need to be since we have the feeder for them. The feeder says to use only trichlor and something else(I'm not sure whatelse). I have to guess and hope that TriChlor is what
the pool company was using.

In the mean time I added 1 gallon of 10% bleach to the pool and 2lbs of CYA to the skimmer. I'm being conservative of how much CYA I add for now since the chemistry is so out I don't want to go high.
The label indicated 2lbs should make it go up by 10ppm.
That's enough for now even though it might still be low.

Also, I discovered that the connections at the filter are dripping water just a little. I bought some silicone grease from Leslie pool supply, but I cannot get the connections to undo. They are compresion fittings.
I don't have a wrench big enough to open the fittings to check and or lubricate the seals. I have a neighbor
who has tools and might have some channel locks or a pipe wrench big enough. Otherwise we'll have to live with the leak until we find someone with the right size wrench. It's only a small leak, but leaves a big enough puddle to notice. I also need to change the o-ring on the pump strainer, but it's not leaking at all. It's degraded enough though since it's got some frayed spots and turns my finger black when I touch it. Leslie's has these o-rings so I'll get them sometime this week. But my HOA has to reimburse me for this stuff first. I spent over $66 today and $21 last night on pool supplies. It'll take a few days to get the money. I cannot afford anymore. I think we've been pretty conservative too on money. Well under $100 so far to get the pool clear is pretty good considering the alternative(s).

Now the bigger concern: the valve also leaks a little and is not changing position smoothly. When I got
home from getting the supplies above, the filter psi had changed upwards so I backwashed it for a couple of minutes; I'm still getting used to do this right. I know I probably didn't need to do it yet but I did anyway. When I changed it back to normal the valve leaked a little and water was still draining into the backwash drain and the filter gauge dropped a little then went up. I could hear gurggling from the backwash outlet pipe too like the valve wasn't completely closed. I think it might still be leaking a little. I'll check it a bit later.

I wonder how I can find out what is wrong with the valve? There are screws on top of it, but I'm loath to get too deep into something I cannot get out of. Are slide valves standardized in any way? Is there a diagram somewhere for a basic slide valve? My mechanical skills are pretty decent once I know what I'm doing.

[Henry_R]

Mr Clean, thank you for your thoughts.

The Certified Pool Operator course is an interesting idea. I'm not certain I'd want the responsibility to maintain the pool once we have more funds to repair then open it but it's a good idea. I'm not sure I
could get it paid for. I'm cash poor and the HOA might see it as an unnecessary expense.

My neighbor was very amazed by the change since last night and said nothing about my essentially disobeying her by turning on the pump this morning. We went to get some supplies and it cost $89 of my own money. She's going to fast-track my being reimbursed since we've likely saved several thousand dollars in would-be fines considering the former condition.

I bought a leaf skimmer, some 10% chlorine liquid shock from Lowes, and a decent pool test kit from Leslie pool supply. The color is now getting to a blue-white from my adding a gallon of the 10% chlorine and about 2lbs of CYA. That should bring CYA up by 10ppm. It read on test strips <30 and continues to read there in the new kit w/ the "disappearing dot" test. Assuming CYA was under 30, but not zero I should be able to get a reading at some point I hope. I don't want to go too high too fast and risk overshooting it so I'm being careful. I'll check chlorine when the sun goes down and again tomorrow morning.

As I said to Denali though my biggest concern now is the pool filter compression fittings are leaking and the valve is stiff and leaked some water around the handle when I changed it earlier. I backwashed for a short time when I got home from getting supplies. When I changed it back to filter It continued to spew water down the drain for several minutes. It is not a multiport valve only a push valve.

Is there a drawing somewhere of these types of valves? The brand name is long worn away if there ever was such a marking. Are they standardized enough to be easy to fix though? My mechanical skills are pretty good as long as I have good instructions. I'm guessing it's just a bad seal like one would find on a kitchen or bathroom sink faucet. Should be easy enough to fix/replace the seal if it's made to be replaceable.

Probably needs as much attention as those compression seals and the o-ring on the pump skimmer.
This pump is running for the first time since probably last fall or early winter.

The compression fittings to the pump are large. My 5" vice grips were too small.
I have a neighbor who might have a wrench big enough or some channel-locks.
He's going to have a look-see when he gets home. We can't do anything until the CYA circulates fully
though. It says on the dry acid bottle to run the pump 48 hours so I'm going to follow that.

You asked about where the backwash water drains to. There is a cast iron pipe that the backwash pipe goes into. There's a picture of it in the link I posted earlier in this thread.

The leak we're going to have to deal with and hope we can keep up with the chlorine levels and such.
We don't have either a brush nor a vacuum because there is nowhere to store them easily. We used
to have a pool building but it was torn down when it became a hazard. So we don't have storage for equipment. We're going to have to store the chemicals on someone's patio for lack of another place.
The brush, skimmer and pole are fairly easy but the vacuum and hose are not.
Our patios are only 5' deep and 50' wide, btw.

[Denali]

Here is a diagram of a typical slide valve. http://www.poolcenter.com/parts_valves_pacfab_slide.htm

The orings on the piston shaft need lubing to slide easily. When you remove the screws to pull the piston shaft out, pull slowly and turn as you pull. The orings can swell and dry out over time so a gentle back and forth as you pull it out will help.

Sounds like things are moving along pretty well.

[Henry_R]

Here is a diagram of a typical slide valve. http://www.poolcenter.com/parts_valves_pacfab_slide.htm

The orings on the piston shaft need lubing to slide easily. When you remove the screws to pull the piston shaft out, pull slowly and turn as you pull. The orings can swell and dry out over time so a gentle back and forth as you pull it out will help.

Sounds like things are moving along pretty well.

Thanks for the link. I found that very page and my valve is a Pentair Pac Fab valve too. I guess I need new gaskets or at least to lube them. Trouble is going be making sure to get the correct gaskets/rings. Googling the part numbers specified for the o-ring on what's left of the valve label gives me zero hits. I don't want to buy the rings and take things apart without know I can repair them. Pentair has a dealer that is right around the corner; literally I could walk there. I think I might take the whole valve innards there and get them to give me the proper o-rings. It's worth having someone who is familar with this type of valve to make sure I get the right ones.

The pool is really starting to look better in the mean time. I snapped a few photos and posted them here: http://s468.photobucket.com/albums/rr48 ... /?start=20

Note the amount of foam on the surface of the water. That began after I added the CYA. Did I do something wrong? I only added about half of what I really think I need since the CYA test is still below 30 I think.
I really need to take a water sample to a pool supply and let them do some tests to make certain I'm testing right.

There are two pictures of the label of the valve too. They're just high enough resolution (after photobucket reduced them) to zoom in and read the writing online.

Thanks to everyone here once again.

I'll be postng back soon I'm sure.

[Denali]

Here is a diagram of a typical slide valve. http://www.poolcenter.com/parts_valves_pacfab_slide.htm

The orings on the piston shaft need lubing to slide easily. When you remove the screws to pull the piston shaft out, pull slowly and turn as you pull. The orings can swell and dry out over time so a gentle back and forth as you pull it out will help.

Sounds like things are moving along pretty well.

Thanks for the link. I found that very page and my valve is a Pentair Pac Fab valve too. I guess I need new gaskets or at least to lube them. Trouble is going be making sure to get the correct gaskets/rings. Googling the part numbers specified for the o-ring on what's left of the valve label gives me zero hits. I don't want to buy the rings and take things apart without know I can repair them. Pentair has a dealer that is right around the corner; literally I could walk there. I think I might take the whole valve innards there and get them to give me the proper o-rings. It's worth having someone who is familar with this type of valve to make sure I get the right ones.

The pool is really starting to look better in the mean time. I snapped a few photos and posted them here: http://s468.photobucket.com/albums/rr48 ... /?start=20

Note the amount of foam on the surface of the water. That began after I added the CYA. Did I do something wrong? I only added about half of what I really think I need since the CYA test is still below 30 I think.
I really need to take a water sample to a pool supply and let them do some tests to make certain I'm testing right.

There are two pictures of the label of the valve too. They're just high enough resolution (after photobucket reduced them) to zoom in and read the writing online.

Thanks to everyone here once again.

I'll be postng back soon I'm sure.

It's looking good!

I would bring in the backwash valve so you're sure you get the right sized orings. Lube it up before putting it back in and it should slide easily.

I wouldn't worry about the foam. Adding the CYA shouldn't cause it. It looks like the foam you get when you use a cheap algaecide they sell at lowes or home depot. The bleach you added, was it unscented? The scented kind does have some additives. Like I said , nothing to worry about there.

[Henry_R]

And so here I am. Just checked the chlorine level and it's near zero again. I added the last of the 10% chlorine shock I bought today and the rest of the CYA since it's evidently still low. How long does powdered CYA take to begin working to bring up the level. Now,I need to get more chlorine and more CYA too, I think. Istill don't want to overshoot the 30-50 range but it's still reading below 30.
The dot in the CYA barely disappears before I fill the vial. Am I doing that test wrong?

*edit* Dinali, I just noticed your post after I submitted mine.
I've used nothing but the unscented walmart great value brand 6% sodium hypochlorite bleach last night.

Today I added 2.5lbs of dry acid to reduce pH. I checked a little while ago and it's down to 7.2 or so.
I hope it'll remain there. That's fine for now. Excellent news!

Then I've put in 2lbs of the CYA and a gallon of 10% liquid chlorine. It calls itself "liquid shock".
This is what I got at Lowes. It cost less than the 6% bleach and stronger so it seemed cost effective.

Tonight I've put in more of this stuff and 2lbs more CYA. The chlorine is measuring near zero again so that's why I added more CYA too. It's after the CYA is added that the foaming begins and the entire pool is foaming now with the second dose.

Other than these I've not put anything else in there to account for the foam.
No algaecide at all; only chlorine as above. Having read about copper problems I've purposely
avoided any chemicals that even mentioned it.

I'm not going to worry about the foam though. Unless it begins to turn green-ish again I'm going to try an let it stabilize some before adding more chlorine. If CYA is still low it's not worth putting it in during the day. I don't have a car and use public transportation. My neighbor has a vehicle, but must be in court in the morning so we can't get any more chlorine in there before we get sunlight & UV burning it up. It'll be at least tomorrow night before I add more. UV index has been very high the last few days too. It's also be blazing hot.

Given the problems with CYA should I try a regular shock formula that's stabilized?
I have a bag of dichlor 4 in 1 shock, but only one; I'd need to get another to have enough.

I also have those three tabs of 3" trichlor.
They're designed for the feeder unit attached to filter. YES, I know not to mix them and not
to use one then the other. No explosions or fires here...

I'll work on the valve problems in a couple of days when the filter can be turned off for a while.
That CYa says to run the pump for 48 hours after adding it. And not to backwash or whatver for
the same timeframe.

*end edit*

[Denali]

And so here I am. Just checked the chlorine level and it's near zero again. I added the last of the 10% chlorine shock I bought today and the rest of the CYA since it's evidently still low. How long does powdered CYA take to begin working to bring up the level. Now,I need to get more chlorine and more CYA too, I think. Istill don't want to overshoot the 30-50 range but it's still reading below 30.
The dot in the CYA barely disappears before I fill the vial. Am I doing that test wrong?

You're doing the test right. It can take up to a week for the CYA to fully register on the test. That is why you shouldn't backwash after adding as you might lose what you put in.

It does take a fair amount of chlorine to turn a green pool clear as you're finding out. You don't want the pool at 0ppm FC for long as the algae will come right back. Best if you can keep the shock level constant until you are clear.

Have you checked pH since the addition of the dry acid?

[Henry_R]

pH is in the 7.2 range as of about 10pm, and still in that range at 12:45am. The chlorine is still measuring near 0.5 to 1. The vial is not completely clear when I test it so it must be just low not zero.

Nothing I can do without another dose and I'm out of it. Shy of throwing 1lb of dichlor in there which is not enough for a 22000 gallon pool I have no more chlorine and won't be able to add more until about 6pm due to my schedule today.

A week is a long time for CYA to register.
Does it begin to have effect on chlorine retention sooner than it shows in the test?

[chem geek]

A week is a long time for CYA to register.
Does it begin to have effect on chlorine retention sooner than it shows in the test?

It will start to have an effect even at 10-20 ppm that may not show up fully in the test. You say you've got Dichlor so that's another way to add both chlorine and increase the CYA simultaneously. For every 10 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) added by Dichlor, it also increases CYA by 9 ppm. You don't want to go too high with your CYA, but if you believe you need to add more, then Dichlor dissolves quickly.