Intelliflow revisited

[dalehileman]

I herewith submit for whatever value it might prove to the pool owner considering a switch to Variable Flow an interchange recently intercepted through a glitch in Internet security between pool owner Elad Namel and one Slenn Glensker who is apparently considering the conversion

Hi Slenn

You had asked for a report as I presume you too might be considering a switch to vf and if I have no other virtues, I do report. Incidentally a $300 rebate on the model our dear friend/installer Ike Borsch had selected came today and so I herewith take the opportunity to thank him also for undergoing the somewhat tedious job applying for it on our behalf

Thanks to the heroic efforts of Ike, Mel, and No. 1 Son Ellie I'm delighted to report the pool so far is beautiful and some of its new features admirable such as means to separately control the sweep and provisions that start the pump in cold weather to prevent freezing. Only minor drawbacks such as:

Otherwise the device largely deprives one of control. For instance as the basic unit contains no way to easily preempt certain basic functions Ike (who is incidentally a high muckitimuck in Aerospace and so naturally understands all vastly complex technological advances) volunteered to install a remote facility to energize the pump, change its speed, and activate the sweep. It has certain apparent limitations, however, though not terribly serious Ike has promised to look into, for instance

1. Because the vf station is situated at a level above the pool surface, when first energized at low speed the vf wouldn't pump but only sucked air Ike found it necessary to program for brief prime at high speed before dropping to low. However if I arrogate control using the remote, when I'm done the program resumes operation but reverts to low speed. So if the interruption was long enough to drain the input tubing, it then won't pump. Of course if I remember I can now use the remote to initiate a prime though I must now also remember to then terminate else it run at that speed all night if I don't intervene

....(a) As the booster purportedly is in danger of self-destruct shoud it suck air, Ike found it necessary in order to ensure a positive pressure at its intake to program the vf at half-speed during sweep time. Because sweep is more efficient at high as I will elucidate, it might prove desirable occasionally, especially after a windstorm, to operate the sweep at that setting, a condition however the program at least as now written won't permit

....(b) Since the remote is the size of a credit card, in my waning years approaching senility I will surely lose it. Somewhat OT but my No. 2 Son Spacey has a brilliant suggestion for Modern Industry. Open letter to the makers of household electronics: Build a beeper into all remotes of every kind as well as a button to activate any other such remote so it's capable of triggering others within range


2. A few localized deposits of black sand (perfectly sanitary though), especially in the corners at the deep end for which I speculate two principal reasons:

....(a) With vf set to low the lighter debris of course is picked up by the sweep but at this flow rate some heavier deposits are no longer carried away by circulation to skimmer port or drain

....(b) But the main one being I now run the sweep for only one hour compared with three before. The Polaris 380 sweep helps remove sand not so much by picking it up as with other debris but by the slashing tail reducing particles to a size more easily suspended. Of course I could have Ike reprogram to sweep 3 hours as before and with vf at high but after all the entire purpose of vf is to save electricity


3. Previously the pump station was virtually immune to damage by sun, wind, rain, falling tree limbs, vandalism, children or other accidental human contact, etc since it used no lightweight components and the wiring was all in conduit. Now however the new system includes delicate and unprotected attachments, two thermal sensors and the remote receiver, connected by a network of relatively fine wiring not easily protected from its environment so I'm contemplating the building of a shed to house the entire complex

Then I would of course endeavor to always leave the remote in the enclosure handy where I could always find it but shielded from the elements. Open letter to Intelliflow: To make the remote unnecessary you should institute a new model master control box with manual control provision built-in using clearly labeled pushbuttons

Such paltry hindrances of course aren't terribly serious, Slenn, but illustrate the vast complexity introduced by the digital megillah and make you feel sorry for the average clod (me) who isn't an expert in the field and wonders how he'd cope if Ike for instance were transferred to Boston. Again however, we're ever so grateful to him and crew since any inconveniences are far overshadowed by the potential saving in electricity since in spite of my advanced age of 80 I plan to live to 104 so I can see my grandchildren graduate college

Your old pool buddy
Elad

[dalehileman]

Might I conclude from the dearth of response that not many of us have made the switch

[chem geek]

I switched to an IntelliFlo 4 years ago and have saved around $700 in electricity costs every year as a result. I haven't had the problems you describe, but I switched from using a (now Pentair) Letro Legend pool cleaner that required a booster pump to using The Pool Cleaner pressure-side 4-wheel model on a dedicated line that the IntelliFlo pump switches to and operates at night (and I got rid of my booster pump as a result).

The Polaris 380 you are using requires a booster pump so will require higher electricity costs regardless of whether you use a separate booster pump or run the IntelliFlo on high. In fact, the IntelliFlo and most other variable-speed/flow pumps, are designed to be more energy efficient at lower speeds and are not necessarily as efficient at higher speeds (especially high-head situations) and are certainly not optimized for high pressure low flow situations for which a booster pump has a specific design.

If you really love Polaris, then you should look into getting model 360, 165, 65, etc. that are all designed to not need a booster pump so can operate with the IntelliFlo at a lower speed and will work well if you still use a dedicated line (which you already have for your existing 380). The Pool Cleaner that I use runs for 2 hours each night though I have a pool cover so an uncovered pool can have it run longer. I am able to run it at 15 GPM which in my situation with a 1.5" dedicated line is 2180 RPM and 540 Watts. During the day when the sweep is off and there is normal circulation, with the solar off I am at 26 GPM, 1500 RPM, 275 Watts while with the solar on (an extensive 12-panel system on a long roof) I am at 48 GPM, 3000 RPM, 1500 Watts.

There are many people who have switched to using the IntelliFlo and are very happy with it, but they make the other appropriate changes to their system to optimize it. It is terribly unfair for you to complain about the Polaris 380 when it is not designed to be used without a booster pump nor to be energy efficient as a result.

[dalehileman]

Geek thank you for that report and indeed it bothers me that the booster consumes such inordinate power

[dalehileman]

…….I switched from using a (now Pentair) Letro Legend pool cleaner that required a booster pump to using The Pool Cleaner pressure-side 4-wheel model…..

Thank you Geek for that link. I am wondering how TPC handles sand. Though my 380 booster is an amphog as you suggest the sweep has a vigorous tail with rings that grind the sand into smaller particles that eventually are carried away by circulation

If you really love Polaris,

I don't, I acquired it when electricity was cheaper and I had no idea how much maintenance it might require. The damn thing has 30 to 300 moving parts depending on how you count them and seems to require inordinate repair. However it eventually does attenuate the deposits of sand if you continually readjust the jet so as to vary its route (still, trouble with the 380 in this respect is that it stirs up the path behind; obviously the tail should have been in front so it could capture particles still in suspension)

…..then you should look into getting model 360, 165, 65, etc. that are all designed to not need a booster pump…..

Thanks most kindly Geek for that suggestion. For the benefit of others contemplating a change if it's no trouble and you have the opportunity I wonder if you could compare these devices, as well as your TPC, in terms of cost, storage facility for debris (density of bag, etc), ability to suck up heavier particles, flow rate typically required for optimum results, how long it must typically run each day, whether it climbs the pool walls, whether it has provisions to automatically vary its route (as with the slowly rotating jet on some sweeps), its ability to cope with step surfaces, number of moving parts and expected reliability, and maintenance considerations such as cost of replacing debris bag etc etc, and which one you would recommend depending on the size, shape, etc, of the pool

If you agree and feel up to it, please consider a new thread

Thanks again for all past and future tips

[chem geek]

The Pool Cleaner works fine for my pool and many people like it, but it's not for everyone. In my pool it doesn't climb walls, but I don't care about. Though it does not have a tail, it does seem to pick everything it rolls over, but I don't generally have sand in my pool. It has a pattern where it periodically will spin around and go in a different direction. I suggest you call up (or E-mail, but phone is better) the Poolvergnugen folks since they are very honest and will tell you what their system can and cannot do well.

[dalehileman]

The Pool Cleaner works fine for my pool and many people like it, but it's not for everyone.

Thank you again for your responses. Yes, and that's why it's so difficult for the average clod (me) to choose a suitable product

In my pool it doesn't climb walls, but I don't care about.

I for one find this capability highly desirable even though we experience very little buildup on vertical surfaces but to climb then deal with the debris collecting upon the top of steps which otherwise requires manual attention

Though it does not have a tail, it does seem to pick everything it rolls over,…..

My own case for instance, living in the Mojave Desert the dispatch of sand is of paramount importance. For what it's worth my 380 though boasting a powerful suction still can't lift the heavier particles which for instance it might if its tail were in front instead of dragging behind thereby momentarily bringing such particles upward into the swirl

but I don't generally have sand in my pool.

…emphasizing my contention that the Industry provides us clods no guidance permitting us to choose the best product for our particular situation and environment; hence the queries in my post above

It has a pattern where it periodically will spin around and go in a different direction.

An especially critical issue depending on the size and shape of one's pool. Thus a slowly rotating jet might have been an excellent adjunct to the 380 even though increasing the number of moving parts. But you'd think it an obvious requirement for any sweep that might acquire habits in its navigation. Perhaps the "engineers" designing your sweep were more cognizant of such, thereby somehow providing a random factor in this respect without entailing the inclusion of dozens more gears

I suggest you call up (or E-mail, but phone is better) the Poolvergnugen folks since they are very honest and will tell you what their system can and cannot do well.

Thanks Geek for that suggestion. Meantime any further contributions from participants underlining differences among the various sweeps is cordially invited

[cpo2go]

I will only attempt to address the pool cleaner part of this discussion. No offense the but rest of this has me lost. I have taken over 30 hours of training by Pentair on the Intelliflo but, I'm a little lost by the over use of verbosity in your initial post. Again, no offense, I'm just not clear on what answers you are looking for.
As for the cleaner, I, too, am a huge fan of Poolvergneugen! If sand is your issue, get a suction cleaner, the Polaris you have is a pressure side cleaner. These are best for larger debris, heavy leaves and such. They aren't really designed for sand or finer debris. That's why they have the tail, to stir up the fine stuff so that it will stay in suspension until circulated into the main drain and removed by the filter.
It is also true that the great people at Poolverguegen are incredibly knowledgeable and honest. They are a family run business and you can easily speak to the actual people who have designed, created and built the units.

[dalehileman]

Again, no offense, I'm just not clear on what answers you are looking for.

None taken Cpo; just felt I should share my ideas and observations, even those not eliciting a response. I'm just chatty

Thank you for that commeny on PV; for other participants here's a link

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=bve ... 85&bih=908

Do you find Cpo that your PV climbs and cleans steps as well as the bottom and incidentally how does it handle sand

A quick Googling reveals several different versions so I for one am dumbfounded with overchoice. If possible, why don't you detail the criteria upon which a potential customer might base his selection

Thank you again Cpo for your participation

..., get a suction cleaner, the Polaris you have is a pressure side cleaner.

I wonder when Polaris will realize that a machine like the 380 could be made to consume sand as well as twigs, etc. All that would be necessary is to have the swishing tail in front instead of pulling it along behind where it seems to perform no useful function except to grind some of the sand into finer particles

To any Polaris techs in our wake: As an erstwhile inventor and longtime pool owner I'd be happy to further share my insights, my email add. dalehileman@me.com

[cpo2go]

Dalehileman--

If you're thinking about getting a PV cleaner, the suction cleaners are basically the same. The larger, 4 wheel version is better for larger pools. The 2 wheel is fine for most backyard pools. Although, I put a 2 wheel in a 20,000 gal kidney shaped pool with a deep diving bell and the cleaner had a hard time climbing out and spent too much time in the deep end. I switched them to the 4 wheel and never had a problem after that. The 4 wheel also comes with a longer hose. If you don't have a designated vacuum line, and you are, instead, using the skimmer port, you may just want to measure to be sure you'll reach the furthest point. I believe the 2 wheel comes with 36' of hose(?) the 4 wheel has 40'. Both do a very good job on the walls. Not so much on the steps.

They have just released a cleaner that can be used as, both, a pressure side cleaner And a suction side cleaner. With very little effort, you can change it over depending on the time of year and the type of debris you're dealing with. Pressure side in the Fall, suction in the Summer. These are brand new and I have never used one but the flexibility is a great option. I have faith in the manufacturers that it's a quality product.

[dalehileman]

Thank you Cpo for that report. I shall Fwd it to several pool-owning correspondents

Still wondering however if the PV systems pick up sand

[cpo2go]

The suction cleaners do a great job with sand. The older pressure cleaners do a decent job but are really designed more for leaves and larger debris. The new combo suction/pressure cleaners wouldn't work for sand at all in the pressure setting. There is a basket, not a bag collecting the debris. In the case of only finer sand, dirt and silt, I would use the suction cleaner.

[dalehileman]

The suction cleaners do a great job with sand.

Aha I shall remember that, thank you Cpo

The older pressure cleaners do a decent job but are really designed more for leaves and larger debris.

I suppose my 380 to be one of those and while it does a fine job with twigs and the like it's disappointing with sand

The new combo suction/pressure cleaners wouldn't work for sand at all in the pressure setting.

Thanks, also good to know

[dalehileman]

The complexity of the Intelliflow may eventually become its undoing. Owing maybe to a power surge--or me somehow misusing the remote--or some such occurrence--during the entire winter the Intelliflow never shut off. It cycled through high-low-sweep ok but then stayed on at low speed all the rest of the time unless I turn it off using remote. I was sure it had something to do with temp setting routine because as soon as the weather warmed up it turned off ok between 3 and 5 pm like it's supposed to

However I was disappointed that it doesn't shut off when it's done, so it still runs all night. Doubtless it still saves electricity over the old system but if for no other reason than it'll wear out quicker, I'd like it to work properly so I’m hoping my No. 1 Son might know what to do. Incidentally he’s an aerospace computer programmer—indeed maybe that’s what’s needed