troubleshooting pool heater

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Pool Clown
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Troubleshooting pool heater

Postby Pool Clown » Sun 20 Sep, 2009 16:31

No, i'm sorry but you are incorrect. The banging is the water boiling in the heat exchanger, not the metal. When the water boils, it expands and thats the banging you hear, just before the high limit would interrupt the heater.

Look, I'm not here to prove what i know, nor to match wits with another tech. I was hoping to help Eric with his heater, But instead, I've been going back and forth with you about something not related (sufficient flow had been verified in the first post).

Lets move on shall we?


Factory warranty service for Pentair, Jandy, Raypak, Polaris, and Paramount pool cleaning systems.
PoolPro

troubleshooting pool heater

Postby PoolPro » Sun 20 Sep, 2009 21:23

Pool Clown wrote: Lets move on shall we?


No, you don't get to say
Pool Clown wrote: No, i'm sorry but you are incorrect.
and not have me reply.

Pool Clown wrote: The banging is the water boiling in the heat exchanger, not the metal. When the water boils, it expands and thats the banging you hear


Go boil some water; you will not hear any banging. The copper is especially susceptible to heat damage. It is the copper heat exchanger that is causing the noise. The copper is warping and expanding.

You said this
Pool Clown wrote: The heater would run till it hit the high limit (somewhere around 108).
. However, you contradict yourself when you say this
Pool Clown wrote: The banging is the water boiling in the heat exchanger, not the metal. When the water boils, it expands and thats the banging you hear, just before the high limit would interrupt the heater.


Water boils at 212 degrees F. If the high limit is going to shut the heater off at 108 F, then the water would never boil. So, which is it?
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Pool Clown
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Joined: Thu 10 Sep, 2009 00:15
My Pool: Uses a Chlorine generator, not a Salt Water Generator (SWG).
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Troubleshooting pool heater

Postby Pool Clown » Sun 20 Sep, 2009 22:02

I'm done here. You should ask around, "What the banging is in the heater? " And see what others say.
Factory warranty service for Pentair, Jandy, Raypak, Polaris, and Paramount pool cleaning systems.
PoolPro

troubleshooting pool heater

Postby PoolPro » Mon 21 Sep, 2009 01:09

OK, thanks for playing our little game. You will receive some nice consolation prizes.

I don't need to ask anyone, I know exactly what's going on.

Let's also remember that you are the one who first challenged my post, and that I was merely responding to your questioning of my advice. If you're not looking for a debate, don't start one.
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Pool Clown
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Joined: Thu 10 Sep, 2009 00:15
My Pool: Uses a Chlorine generator, not a Salt Water Generator (SWG).
Location: Silicon Valley, CA

Troubleshooting pool heater

Postby Pool Clown » Mon 21 Sep, 2009 07:50

Sorry, but i found this amusing, and i just had to keep playing your little game...

poolpro wrote:Before you begin jumping safety switches...


This is you responding to me first. Not only do you have heaters wrong, You think others are "challenging" you first as well.

poolpro wrote:OK, thanks for playing our little game. You will receive some nice consolation prizes.

You think this is a game huh? I'll bet Eric doesn't think its a game.
poolpro wrote: I don't need to ask anyone,

Spoken like a true know it all. Thats right, stick your head in the sand.
poolpro wrote: I know exactly what's going on.

Too amusing for comment.
poolpro wrote: If you're not looking for a debate, don't start one.

Were you debating? I've been trying to offer advice here.
Factory warranty service for Pentair, Jandy, Raypak, Polaris, and Paramount pool cleaning systems.
PoolPro

Troubleshooting pool heater

Postby PoolPro » Mon 21 Sep, 2009 15:35

Pool Clown wrote: This is you responding to me first.


When I said, "Before you begin jumping safety switches", I was addressing the original poster. I was not addressing you. I was giving the original poster additional advice. It did not detract from your advice at all.

Pool Clown wrote: Not only do you have heaters wrong


Nothing that I have said is wrong.

Pool Clown wrote:Spoken like a true know it all


When I am sure about something, I do not need to waste time asking anyone else's opinion. If you feel the need to ask, then go right ahead.

Pool Clown wrote: Were you debating? I've been trying to offer advice here.


Obviously, we are debating. Most of your posting has been debating me, not offering advice to the original poster.
PoolPro

troubleshooting pool heater

Postby PoolPro » Mon 21 Sep, 2009 16:04

You still haven't explained how water is going to boil in the heater at 108 degrees F. Or, why water would make a banging sound when it boiled.

Pool Clown wrote: Your confusing me.


Yes, it's obvious that you are quite confused.
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Pool Clown
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Troubleshooting pool heater

Postby Pool Clown » Mon 21 Sep, 2009 20:48

PoolPro wrote:You still haven't explained how water is going to boil in the heater at 108 degrees F. Or, why water would make a banging sound when it boiled.

It's obvious that you don't want to listen to me, thats why I asked you to ask others. I still would like you to do this. If your'e sure that you are right, then there should not be a problem, or are you worried you will be wrong? Ask someone you trust in the industry. Thats how i found out the water boils, was by talking to tech support and going to countless seminars, Jandy, Raypak, Pentair. Are all these manufacturers wrong, and you are right? (no need to respond)

Pool Clown wrote: Your confusing me.


PoolPro wrote: it's obvious that you are quite confused.

Taken out of context of course... Why don't you quote the Whole post?
Pool Clown wrote: Your confusing me. First you say don't jump the pressure switch, then you say jump all of them??? Jumping the entire safety circuit does not tell you which safety switch is not working.


PoolPro wrote: I said, "Before you begin jumping safety switches", I was addressing the original poster. I was not addressing you.


Eric did not say anything about jumping safety switches, That was me.

PoolPro wrote: I was giving the original poster additional advice.


Advice in addition to who's?, if not mine? My post was the only one before your first post.
Factory warranty service for Pentair, Jandy, Raypak, Polaris, and Paramount pool cleaning systems.
PoolPro

troubleshooting pool heater

Postby PoolPro » Tue 22 Sep, 2009 01:00

Pool Clown wrote: Advice in addition to who's?, if not mine? My post was the only one before your first post.


Yes, it was in addition to yours. What's wrong with that? It did not contradict or detract from your advice.

Pool Pro wrote:"If the heater fires without good water flow, it WILL damage the heater."

Your response:
Pool Clown wrote: "Not really, the high limit(s) will shut the heater off before any damage would occur."


Pentair wrote:NOTICE: Heater operation with incorrect Pressure Switch setting may cause operation with no water flow. Operation of the heater without sufficient water flow may severely damage it.

http://www.pentairpool.com/pdfs/MasterTempOM.pdf"

Hayward wrote:Caution: Never allow the main burner to operate more than five seconds with the filter system shut off. Serious damage to the heater will result. Anytime the heater bangs or knocks, it indicates a water void or lack of water flow. Shut off heater immediately if this occurs.

http://www.haywardnet.com/products/Manu ... ual285.pdf

Notice that it says "water void". That means NO water. If there is NO water, then the banging cannot be caused by boiling water.

Raypak wrote:WATER PRESSURE SWITCH
A water pressure switch is provided in the heater to shut off the burners in the event that water supply is
interrupted. It is very important to verify that the switch electrically opens and shuts off the gas valve when water flow to the heater is interrupted. Otherwise, rapid and severe damage will likely occur to the heater.

http://www.raypak.com/poolframe.htm

Notice that it says "rapid and severe damage will likely occur to the heater." It doesn't say anything about the high limit preventing heater damage, as you claim.
PoolPro

troubleshooting pool heater

Postby PoolPro » Tue 22 Sep, 2009 01:18

Pool Clown wrote:Thats how i found out the water boils, was by talking to tech support and going to countless seminars, Jandy, Raypak, Pentair.


I never said that the water doesn't boil. I said that the banging sound wasn't caused by boiling water. Provide a reference that says that the knocking or banging is caused by water boiling. I have already provided a reference that says "Water void"; that means "NO" water. I said that the banking or knocking was caused by the heat exchanger overheating and overexpanding, and being damaged. I also talk to tech support and take seminars and I have been doing pool service longer than you have.

I was pointing out your inconsistency. You are the one who implied that water would not boil. You are the one who said that the hi-limit would turn the heater off at 108 F. If the heater turns off at 108 F, then how is the water going to boil?

Pool Clown wrote:Are all these manufacturers wrong, and you are right?


Provide references where any manufacturer's statement supports your claims, or is inconsistent with mine. I have provided three references that contradict what you claim.
PoolPro

troubleshooting pool heater

Postby PoolPro » Tue 22 Sep, 2009 03:25

There is one situation where boiling water could contribute to the expansion of the heat exchanger. If the heater was isolated by valves and the water began to boil, then the pressure caused by the boiling water would contribute to the expansion of the heat exchanger. However, that still does not change the fact that the banging or knocking is being caused by the heat exchanger overheating and overexpanding, and not by the boiling water itself.
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Pool Clown
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Posts: 88
Joined: Thu 10 Sep, 2009 00:15
My Pool: Uses a Chlorine generator, not a Salt Water Generator (SWG).
Location: Silicon Valley, CA

Troubleshooting pool heater

Postby Pool Clown » Tue 06 Oct, 2009 21:44

PoolPro wrote:
I never said that the water doesn't boil. I said that the banging sound wasn't caused by boiling water. Provide a reference that says that the knocking or banging is caused by water boiling.

Have you asked anyone yet "What the banging is"?

I have already provided a reference that says "Water void"; that means "NO" water. I said that the banking or knocking was caused by the heat exchanger overheating and overexpanding, and being damaged.

I've never tried to fire a heater that has no water in it. Why would i or anyone do that? I'll admit, I don't know what a completely dry heater sounds like if you try to fire it.

I also talk to tech support and take seminars

Great, then you can ask the guy "What the banging is"

and I have been doing pool service longer than you have.

Please provide facts that support this.

I was pointing out your inconsistency. You are the one who implied that water would not boil. You are the one who said that the hi-limit would turn the heater off at 108 F. If the heater turns off at 108 F, then how is the water going to boil?

I was wondering if you would ever pick up on this, I intentionally said Hi limit shut off is at 108 to see if you knew what the real temp shut off on most high limits are.

Pool Clown wrote:Are all these manufacturers wrong, and you are right?


Provide references where any manufacturer's statement supports your claims, or is inconsistent with mine. I have provided three references that contradict what you claim.


Provide documentation that says, "the banging is due to the metal flexing too fast, and not the water boiling." since you had been pouring over the Pentair, Hayward, and Raypak pdf's to prove me wrong, which you could not do by the way, It should be easy to find, I'll wait...

By the way, How long do you think momentary means? if not less than 5 seconds? I Don't know where you got the idea that i jump switches for a longer period of time, Other than not stating the obvious "don't leave the jumper on"
Factory warranty service for Pentair, Jandy, Raypak, Polaris, and Paramount pool cleaning systems.
User avatar
Pool Clown
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Swimming Pool Wizard
Posts: 88
Joined: Thu 10 Sep, 2009 00:15
My Pool: Uses a Chlorine generator, not a Salt Water Generator (SWG).
Location: Silicon Valley, CA

Troubleshooting pool heater

Postby Pool Clown » Tue 06 Oct, 2009 21:46

EricVH wrote:I have a Hayward pool heater with millivolt control. The pilot light is lit, the thermostat is set high, and the pump is on with good water flow -- but the heater won't come on when I turn it on.

The control is Model 36D35U, Type 401, PN 1500984901F

I measured the following voltages on the gas control terminals, with the heater switch in the OFF and ON positions (voltages are referenced to the control valve body):

               OFF | ON
------------------------------
TH         0.0 V | 0.072 V
TH+PG   0.5 V | 0.38 V       <---- these TH+PG values fluctuated about +/- 0.04 V
PG         0.0 V | 0.0 V

(I think those letters are correct. "TH+PG" was obscured some by wiring, but I think that's what it said.)

Are these voltages correct, or in the valid range? I'm guessing that if these values are correct, then the problem is with the control valve; and if they're out of range, then the problem is with the thermocouple.

I don't run the heater, but I leave the pilot lit and test it once in a while. Several times when I've tested it before, I've had to try flipping the on/off switch several times before it kicked on. So I know that it's all hooked up right, and the fact that I get different values for the ON and OFF positions tells me that all of the switches and t-stat are right.

I also checked the voltage drop across the on/off switch. I didn't record the values, but it dropped to 0 (or close to it) when I turned it on, so I think the switch is fine.

Any suggestions on how to further diagnose the heater would be appreciated!


Eric, Sorry your thread got high jacked Buddy.
Factory warranty service for Pentair, Jandy, Raypak, Polaris, and Paramount pool cleaning systems.
Jayss

troubleshooting pool heater

Postby Jayss » Thu 08 Oct, 2009 19:38

First you need to check the thermopile at the gas valve and make sure you at least 500 millivolt.
PoolPro

Troubleshooting pool heater

Postby PoolPro » Thu 08 Oct, 2009 23:41

Pool Clown wrote:I intentionally said Hi limit shut off is at 108 to see if you knew what the real temp shut off on most high limits are.


Yeah, right. You give bad information because you don't know what you're talking about. I suppose all of the other things that you were wrong about were also done on purpose. Don't make me laugh.

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