ballpark of how much chemicals are going to cost for 45,000

The basics of swimming pool maintenance.
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buzzbait

Postby buzzbait » Fri 10 Aug, 2007 09:53

Hey!
I just called two pool supply places and thy said you can't get liquid chlorine in Alabama!What up!!!!


Guest

Postby Guest » Fri 10 Aug, 2007 10:06

WoW! They are really trying to rip you off now!

Have they ever heard of CLOROX???

Do they sell that stuff in Alabama???
Or is it illegal down south? :roll:
buzzbait

Postby buzzbait » Fri 10 Aug, 2007 10:24

Yea!I was hopeing to get the 12.5% that Chem Geek spoke of less to carry arround!. I've called 5 pool supply places now.I guess They don't sell the 12.5% chlorinating liquid in Alabama!Guess I'll take a trip to Wally World and buy them out of Ultra bleach.
How expensive are those powders?Do they have cya?Do they have pucks without cya?With such a large pool is bleach going to be the best/cheapest route?
Guest

Postby Guest » Fri 10 Aug, 2007 13:23

Liquid bleach doesn't come in powder... or are you talking about Borax and Baking Soda?
^^ Now that comes in a powder and it's cheap.
(20 Mule Team, green box and Arm&Hammer yellow box)

Liquid bleach contain NO CYA.
CYA is conditioner/stabilizer in their pool section if they still have one... :roll: If I'm not mistaken, you could get more at Lowes for less or something like that... Oh well, can't remember right now... Anyone else???

I don't think you'll find a puck without CYA... I don't use them, just bleach. :D

Well, you'll pay more than me because I have a smaller pool! :lol: :wink: I think it would be better, atleast that's the way I'd go with any pool I had and I so wish I had a huge, I MEAN HUGE inground.
WALMART!!!! WATCH OUT!!!!!!!! HERE I COME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :twisted:
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Postby chem geek » Fri 10 Aug, 2007 13:44

Here are the possible sources of chlorine and what they contain:

Trichlor pucks/tabs are solid, slow-dissolving, usually put into floating dispensers or automatic inline chlorinators. They are highly acidic and contain Cyanuric Acid (CYA) (technically, they dissolve into CYA and chlorine in water). For every 1 ppm FC added by Trichlor, it also adds 0.6 ppm CYA. Some Trichlor might be available as powder/granules, but usually they are pucks/tabs.

Dichlor powder/granules dissolve very quickly. They contain even more CYA than Trichlor for the same amount of chlorine. They are somewhat acidic (they are not pH neutral -- the initial addition is slightly acidic, but the usage of chlorine is more acidic so the net result is acidic, but not nearly as much as Trichlor). For every 1 ppm FC added by Dichlor, it also adds 0.9 ppm CYA.

Cal-Hypo granules dissolve somewhat slowly, but not like Trichlor. They generally are pre-dissolved in a bucket of water before addition. There are slower-dissolving pucks (HTH Duration Tabs) but they tend to fall apart near the end and have gummy additives (only the pucks, not the granules). This is a fairly pH neutral source of chlorine when accounting for chlorine usage. Cal-Hypo adds to Calcium Hardness (CH). For every 1 ppm FC added by Cal-Hypo, it also adds 0.7 ppm CH.

Unscented bleach and chlorinating liquid dilute in pool water, but are denser than water when in concentrated form so must be added slowly, especially to vinyl pools without a floor drain, to prevent accumulation at the bottom of the pool (adding slowly to a return flow and/or pre-diluting in a bucket of pool water helps). This form of chlorine does not add to CYA nor CH. It does add salt above and beyond what is added by ALL forms of chlorine since chlorine gets used up by converting to chloride (salt). For every 1 ppm FC added by bleach or chlorinating liquid, you get 0.8 ppm "extra" salt. From all sources of chlorine you get 0.8 ppm salt so for this source of chlorine the net is 1.6 ppm salt after chlorine usage.

Lithium Hypochlorite powder dissolves very quickly. It is similar to chlorine in being pH neutral when accounting for chlorine usage and is similar in its salt content. The main downside is that this is the most expensive source of chlorine, about 5 times as expensive as Trichlor for equivalent chlorine amount.

To reduce the amount of labor for constantly adding chlorine to your pool, you can consider The Liquidator. You can also consider getting a saltwater chlorine generator (SWG) system. Another alternative is to not worry about the CYA and just use an initial dose and then weekly maintenance dose of PolyQuat 60 algaecide. That will prevent algae even when the CYA gets high and the FC stays around 3 ppm. At some point, however, when the CYA gets to 150 ppm or more you'll want to drain/refill to dilute the CYA since really high CYA may degrade plaster (see this link).

You should also try and find out why Alabama doesn't sell chlorinating liquid (check hardware stores such as Home Depot or OSH as well) since, as was pointed out, that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever if they are selling bleach in stores. Chlorinating liquid is only around double the concentration of Clorox Regular bleach. What do commercial and public pools do? Use only chlorine gas? Are all using SWG systems? Some will use Trichlor feeders, but I doubt if all do.

Richard
buzzbait

Postby buzzbait » Mon 13 Aug, 2007 21:16

Ok!Two days til closeing!!The pool is 36x18x9 maybe 10ft at the deep end 3 at the shallow.Found out that we have a Leslie's store nearby so I dropped in.They tested my the water.FAC-2,PH-7.8,TA-120,TDS-300.That's all they tested for.Didn't test for cya.
I asked if they had a Taylor k-2006.They did not they had their DPD delux test kit made by Taylor.It tests for free and total chlorine bromine,ph,acid demand and total alkalinity.Here is were I should have done more home work!I asked the little girl if acid demand ment the same as a cya test.She asured me that it was so I bought the kit.I know better now!Can you buy just a Taylor cya test?If so were?
I know you guy's know what your talking about and I want to learn "the ways of a Jedi" but I can't understand why Lowe's,Home depo,Wal-mart,Leslie's pool supplies and two pool guy's i've talked too and the 4 other pool supply places I've called only sell/use Trichlor or Dichlor and tell me to use it if cya is such a problem!!and why I can't find anything else!They look at me like im crazy when i ask about chlorinating liquid!
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Postby chem geek » Mon 13 Aug, 2007 22:41

Leslie's sells the Taylor K-2006 kit online here and it has the better FAS-DPD chlorine test compared to what they gave you (which may have been a K-2005 or worse). The DPD chlorine test you have will only test up to 5 ppm FC and won't be as accurate. If it's a comparator test (i.e. see the intensity of red color), then get the FAS-DPD Taylor 1515-A directly from Taylor here. If the test kit they sold you truly does not test for CYA, then get the Taylor K-1721 here or the K-1720 here depending on how many tests you want to do.

The best test kit to get is based on the Taylor kit, but has a more logical set of reagents and is the TF100 sold at tftestkits here so at some point as you run out of chemicals and want to "start over" with a new kit, then this is one to get (or at least get the Taylor K-2006 if not the TF100).

As for the pool stores, most of the employees are not trained well on pool water chemistry nor what the test kits do. They have very little incentive to do so since they would prefer controlling the measurements and making recommendations having you buy chemicals rather than you figuring out what you need (which is usually minimal) and even buying store-bought chemicals in place of the pool store. I wouldn't mind at all buying from a store where service was truly provided, but in the long run they are shooting themselves in the foot as more and more pool users get frustrated and turn to forums to figure things out. The manufacturers of Trichlor and Dichlor don't help by promoting the mantra that "CYA doesn't matter; only FC matters in real pools".

Now, to their credit, most manufacturers do say that if you use Trichlor regularly you should also use a weekly PolyQuat 60 algaecide (that they also sell) and they often package these as "programs" guaranteed to not get algae. At least they aren't lying in this case. They just aren't telling the whole truth that chlorine alone CAN keep away algae in most cases if CYA levels are monitored.

Richard
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Postby chem geek » Tue 14 Aug, 2007 12:14

If you ever need to shock the pool, then you'd have to use the dilution method to measure the higher chlorine levels. I don't think that's the way to go. I'd get the Taylor K-1515-A test for the far superior FAS-DPD chlorine test instead. And you will need one of the two Taylor tests I mentioned (1721 or 1720) to test for CYA as well.

Perhaps if you haven't opened the test kit yet, you can take it back and get a refund and then just order the TF100 online as tftestkits will ship it very quickly to you. Otherwise, fill in with the Taylor tests mentioned above. Sorry you got burned. Most pool stores do not carry the FAS-DPD chlorine test kit -- even though you can get them online (from Leslie's online, for example).

I see that Jason over at TFP pretty much gave you the same advice. The folks at TFP are great and many came from The Pool Forum which unfortunately no longer accepts new members (the owner of that forum, Ben Powell, is gone and out of communication).
buzzbait

Postby buzzbait » Tue 14 Aug, 2007 14:32

Ok!I went today and they gave me my money back.im fixin to order the tf-100 and be done with it!
buzzbait

Postby buzzbait » Thu 16 Aug, 2007 23:32

It's official Im the new pool/lawn boy!
I went and snuck some water the morning of closeing(Wensday).The pool guy had not been there.I tested free chlorine at 0.5.I added a big bottle (Like 120oz?)of GV ultra 6% bleech.That afternoon the FC was up to 4.0.Ok,tonight my tf-100 came in.The numbers are a bit shakey!

FC-0.5
CC-0
TC-0.5
PH-7.8
TA-180
CH-140
CYA-???I used all the solution and still could faintly see the dot!???
Temp 88
I just added a jug of bleach so the Chlorine should be back up in the morning but what about that TA and how can I get the cya up fast?
chem geek
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Postby chem geek » Fri 17 Aug, 2007 00:23

There are essentially four different ways to add CYA:

1) Add Cyanuric Acid (CYA) directly. The problem is that CYA is very slow to dissolve. To have it dissolve in a day or two, put it into some pantyhose or sock and hang it into the water in the return water flow. Alternatively, put it in panty hose or skimmer sock and put it into the skimmer. Remember that the CYA is acidic, but with your high TA that shouldn't be too much of a problem. Be sure and keep the pump running 24/7 until it fully dissolves.

2) Add Dichlor since every 1 ppm FC increase also increases CYA by 0.9 ppm. Dichlor dissolves quickly so you could readily add 10 ppm at one shot then just add more Dichlor over time to keep the FC up until the CYA accumulates to the desired amount. Dichlor is more acidic than the CYA when one accounts for chlorine usage, but again with your high TA that shouldn't be a problem.

3) Use Trichlor pucks/tabs. This is probably the worst option since it's slow and Trichlor is highly acidic and for every 1 ppm FC increase you only get CYA to go up by 0.6 ppm so is less efficient at raising CYA than Dichlor.

4) Use Natural Chemistry Instant Pool Water Conditioner available from many sources (see this one). This is a salt of CYA so is relatively pH neutral and dissolves quickly. This is a great solution for quick CYA increase, but is more expensive.

Though most people go with option #1, I personally like the idea of option #2 since it conveniently adds chlorine as well as CYA, but option #4 is the fastest way to add only CYA but is most expensive. Up to you.
buzzbait

Postby buzzbait » Fri 17 Aug, 2007 22:51

I bought 5lbs of 100% CYA since I already had a bunch of bleach and this evening I put 3lbs into two pantyhose and hung them into the water in the return water flow liked formentioned.How long do ya think I should wait til I cheak the CYA agin?
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Postby chem geek » Sat 18 Aug, 2007 02:27

If you measured the correct amount, wait 2 days until after it has fully dissolved. Some of it will get trapped in the filter even after its dissolved in the sock or panty hose and will continue to dissolve from the filter. This may be conservative, but unless you've got lots of CYA reagent, it's better to wait than see that it is still changing (rising).
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Postby Backglass » Sat 18 Aug, 2007 10:10

chem geek wrote:unless you've got lots of CYA reagent, it's better to wait than see that it is still changing (rising).


Speaking of CYA reagent, I blew through mine pretty fast opening my pool and getting my CYA correct.

I found big 16oz bottles of Taylor CYA R-0013 reagent HERE for $5.49. Thats enough for several seasons! You do have to pay $5.00 shipping though so it's best to order several things at once, but even $10.49 is a better price than most for that size.
===============================
I'm no expert...just a long time pool owner. The real experts are at www . troublefreepool . com

Download Bleachcalc free at troublefreepool . com /files/BleachCalc262.exe and start saving money on chemicals.
buzzbait

Postby buzzbait » Sat 18 Aug, 2007 21:56

Yea!Im going through the CYA reagent quick!

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