Need Help with Pool Chemicals

[floridapooltech]

James Watson:

1. Calcium can be useful for a fiberglass pool. Raising it to about 175 wouldn't hurt.

-Why would you add calcium to a pool that is made of fiberglass? I would just like to know your reasoning. Nowhere is it "recommended" to have a 175 in a non gunite pool.

2. The TA of 130 is fine for now. You should leave it alone.

-Recommended levels of TA is 80-120, 130 is high, and therefore will promote deterioration and destruction of pool equipment and surfaces, as well as irritation to swimmers.


3. The Cyanuric acid at 100 is a little high. You should drain some water and refill to lower it to less than 80 ppm. Until you do that, you should maintain your chlorine at 8 to 10 ppm. The chlorine should be maintained at about 7 to 8 percent of your cyanuric acid level.

-There is no need for the homeowner at the moment to start diluting water. They are removing the source of CYA (trichlor tabs). Using liquid chlorine and other products CYA free for awhile will allow the CYA to lower on it's own. Dilution is expensive. If not immediately required, doesn't need to be done.


4. When adding acid, always dilute the acid in water before adding it to the pool. Or, pour the acid into the stream coming out of your returns to make sure that the acid is well distributed. Do not pour the acid in a column, it will sink to the bottom and is not good for any pool surface.

-Adding muriatic or non-fuming acid in a column will lower the TA level, and leave the pH alone. This practice has been recommended and practiced since the beginning of time. If you want to lower pH, then yes, allow the acid to distribute evenly throughout the pool.

[James Watson]

swimnsaveusa
-Why would you add calcium to a pool that is made of fiberglass? I would just like to know your reasoning.

1) I believe that some fiberglass contains calcium carbonate filler.
2) Maintaining a higher calcium level can help prevent cobalt from being leached from the fiberglass. Cobalt leaching can cause black cobalt stains.
3) A higher calcium level can help prevent metal staining of fiberglass.

swimnsaveusa
Nowhere is it "recommended" to have a 175 in a non gunite pool.

The pool calculator recommends a lower level of 220 ppm calcium for fiberglass

Calcium Hardness (C.H.) is the relative hardness of your pool water, and is measured in P.P.M. If the water is too soft, it will be aggressive and erode pool equipment such as heaters, ladders and even the gel coat finish. If the water is too hard, deposits will form on the pool equipment and finish. 300 to 350 P.P.M. is the proper hardness for your San Juan Pool and should be checked monthly.
http://www.sanjuanpools.net/Downloads/maintenance.doc

Target Range for Calcium Hardness is between (test and adjust monthly
 250 ppm – 500 ppm (Spring start up and Fall closing normal)
 300 ppm – 500 ppm (If staining or cosmetic problems are present)
In order to prevent staining and remove minerals that cause stains, the calcium hardness range should be at least 200 ppm or higher. http://www.royalfiberglasspools.com/mai ... 0Guide.pdf

swimnsaveusa
-Recommended levels of TA is 80-120, 130 is high, and therefore will promote deterioration and destruction of pool equipment and surfaces, as well as irritation to swimmers.

Completely wrong. 130 ppm is fine for TA and will not have any adverse effects.

swimnsaveusa
There is no need for the homeowner at the moment to start diluting water. They are removing the source of CYA (trichlor tabs). Using liquid chlorine and other products CYA free for awhile will allow the CYA to lower on it's own. Dilution is expensive. If not immediately required, doesn't need to be done.

100 ppm is too high. Draining and refilling about 2 feet of water won't be that expensive. And, a reading of 100 ppm for cyanuric acid usually means that the level is much higher.

swimnsaveusa
Adding muriatic or non-fuming acid in a column will lower the TA level, and leave the pH alone. This practice has been recommended and practiced since the beginning of time. If you want to lower pH, then yes, allow the acid to distribute evenly throughout the pool.

This method is a myth. It is also dangerous to the pool surface.

[floridapooltech]

James Watson:

I seem to sense the vibe you're one of those that has to always be right. We will not be arguing this topic with you, if the homeowner wants to take your advise and not that of one of our tech's that is "by-the-book", so be it. It's just ridiculous that you come onto this forum not too long ago and seem to argue with all the pro's that have established themselves on here.

Thank you, and good day

-Joe B.
Pool Safety & Health Inspector,
Swim 'N Save USA, LLC.

[James Watson]

I have provided multiple references to back up my claims. You have provided nothing.

You claim to be "By-the-book". What book are you talking about?

swimnsaveusa
It's just ridiculous that you come onto this forum not too long ago and seem to argue with all the pro's that have established themselves on here.

Give examples. Cite examples of any advice I have given that you think is wrong.

swimnsaveusa
Pool Safety & Health Inspector

Wow, very impressive. A self-proclaimed title. Did you also have a shiny little badge made up to make it seem more legitimate?

swimnsaveusa
We will not be arguing this topic with you

If you knew what you were talking about, then you wouldn't have any problem supporting your position.

swimnsaveusa
I think he/she needs to go take a chemistry class (or two)

I think that you're the one who needs the classes. You do not know what you are talking about.

[James Watson]

swimnsaveusa
Adding muriatic or non-fuming acid in a column will lower the TA level, and leave the pH alone. This practice has been recommended and practiced since the beginning of time.

http://poolhelp.com/handouts/oB_Acid%20 ... andout.pdf

http://www.poolhelp.com/JSPSI_V1N2_16-30_AcidColumn.pdf

swimnsaveusa
Nowhere is it "recommended" to have a 175 in a non gunite pool.

Calcium Hardness
The recommended range is between 200-400 ppm for both plaster and fiberglass.
Reference 1

CH levels around 200-250 are recommended for fiberglass pools, to protect the gelcoat and somewhat reduce the severity of metal stains. Reference 2

Calcium helps fiberglass pools resist staining and cobalt spotting.
Reference 3

[James Watson]

www, one of the critical factors you need to manage is the CSI (Calcite Saturation Index). You should maintain a CSI of between -0.2 and +0.2.

You can use the pool calculator to calculate your CSI.

[floridapooltech]

James Watson, you are extremely, rude, immature, and confrontational. We are here giving out free advise and all you do is try starting an argument? If you "know so much", why don't you actually have the forum administrators set you up as a pool pro? Anyone can write just about anything right or wrong and place it on a website. it is proven that a fiberglass pool shouldn't have anymore than 120ppm calcium which they already have, yet you think the homeowner needs to go out and buy $100 worth of it for no reason?? Self proclaimed title with a shiny badge...I'm not even going to get into this as your are very immature. There are a few books you should be reading that we refer to. 1: NSPF "Pool & Spa Operator Handbook", 2: Taylor "Pool & Spa Chemistry", 3: Seaklear "The Book On Effective Water Treatment". When you read those 3 manuals, maybe someday you will grow up, act your age, and stop giving people the "wikipedia" advise that average people can write on google. If you haven't noticed, people come to this forum to get REAL advise as they know how reliable internet advise really is.

[chem geek]

Guys, please calm down.

As for the slug method or acid column method, this was debunked in this report that James referenced and this method doesn't make sense from the chemistry/physics either. Adding a lot of acid quickly can damage pool surfaces (I'd never ever do this in a vinyl pool, for example) and will not differentially lower TA vs. pH. Adding acid REGARDLESS OF METHOD lowers the Total Alkalinity (TA) where 25-1/2 fluid ounces of full-strength Muriatic Acid (31.45% Hydrochloric Acid) in 10,000 gallons lowers the TA by 10 ppm. That comes from the chemistry, pure and simple. What can happen is that carbon dioxide outgassing can cause the pH to rise with no change in TA, but there is no way to prevent a TA drop when adding a strong acid.

Of course, adding acid also lowers the pH so the way to lower the TA while not lowering the pH too much is to do aeration. The lowering TA procedure is described in this post. The slug method presumes that it can cause more outgassing of carbon dioxide due to locally low pH, but this process is not fast so it is safer and more efficient to lower the pH of the entire pool (and therefore it's surface exposed to the air) to 7.0 or so and increase aeration (pointing up returns, running a fountain, waterfall, etc. or splashing) which will cause the pH to rise with no change in TA. More acid can then be added to further lower the TA and the process repeated until the TA target is achieved. Then aeration has the pH rise with no change in TA.

As for the proper level of Calcium Hardness (CH) in fiberglass pools, this isn't crystal clear the way it is for plaster pools that clearly need the full amount to saturate the water with calcium carbonate (i.e. they should have a saturation index near 0) nor for vinyl pools that do not need it at all and do not need the saturation index to be higher. The gelcoat for fiberglass can contain calcium carbonate so to that extent some saturation of the water might be helpful to protect that gelcoat. As for cobalt staining, that is something that waterbear (a user on other sites with extensive experience and knowledge) had indicated that some CH helps reduce that though it didn't sound like full saturation was needed. So on this one, I'm not so definite with regard to fiberglass.

Richard

[James Watson]

Waterbear says that he keeps his calcium at 250 ppm.

The calcium is supposed to help prevent staining and to prevent cobalt leaching from the gelcoat. Cobalt staining is very common in fiberglass pools and looks like little black dots that seem to grow like a crystal. I keep mine at about 250 ppm. I used to keep it lower but I had iron stains more often. Since I increased the hardness of the water, I have had much less iron staining in the pool. Didn't even need to use any ascorbic acid this year! - Waterbear
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?p=54560

And, the two fiberglass manufacturers that I referenced say that a higher level of calcium is needed. At a minimum, the warranty is an issue. The OP should find out what calcium level is recommended by the manufacturer of their pool.

[James Watson]

swimnsaveusa
it is proven that a fiberglass pool shouldn't have anymore than 120ppm calcium which they already have, yet you think the homeowner needs to go out and buy $100 worth of it for no reason??

Increasing the calcium from 130 to 175 would only take 5 pounds. How do you get $100.00? Is that how much you think it would cost? For someone who "claims" to be in the industry, you sure don't know very much.

Perhaps you charge 20 dollars per pound for calcium chloride, but that's ridiculous.

[Jsmoon]

This inflatable pools site has a guide claiming that bromine is just as usuable as chlorine. Is that really true?

[chem geek]

Bromine is a valid option but has its own set of issues. It breaks down in sunlight but unlike chlorine it isn't protected directly by Cyanuric Acid (aka stabilizer or conditioner). It's also generally more expensive, but for a very small pool that's not a big deal.