Want to try BBB but not sure what to do!

[Guest]

I am new to pool care, we've struggled with learning what to do all summer and I am sick of spending hundreds to get rid of algea for it to return in a week! I bought 6 of the big GV Bleach from Walmart 6% bleach. My test strips do not show my CYA (which I know nothing about). I typed everything I know about my pool into the Pool Calculator and it says I should add 622 oz to shock it. I do have algea in the bottom though and earlier in the summer we had to fight mustard algea and am not sure if it is that or not. Should I add more just in case or not? Do I have to have my CYA level tested first?
Also, how do I add the bleach, into skimmer or just pour in front of jets? This won't bleach my vinyl liner?
Im scared and if this doesn't work my husband will kill me! He thinks we should stick with listening to these people that know NOTHING at the pool store!
Any info is appreciated!
pH 7.8
FC 0 to .5
Total Alk 120
Stabilizer 30

[Jessi]

I wish someone would respond so I knew if I am doing anything right at all! I added 5 182 oz jugs of bleach to it yesterday. I keep brushing the entire pool but it keeps putting a layer of yellow algea on the bottom. The shallow end is pretty clear but the bottom of the deep end is still tinted green. I ran out of the stupid test strips so I am going to Walmart to buy the 6 way kit. I know you all reccommend the FASDPD but I don't have the money to wait for it and hopefully can convince my husband we need a kit that expensive. Will the Walmart kit show me if I have the pool at shock level or am I wasting my money? I am going to go get a bunch more bleach and keep adding it until it's blue again. HELP! I will post my results from the kit later this afternoon. Thanks to anyone who can give me advice.

Why isn't TFP allowing new members? I wish I could get on a more active board so I can get advice. I am reading everyone's posts but need individual attention! I guess I am needy! Ha

[czechmate]

Jessi,
the kit you need is only about $12.00 at Leslie's. 3 bottle Taylor kit for FC -free chlorine and PH. Have the pool store test your CYA and the Pool calculator will tell you how much chlorine is needed for shock, based on pool water volume. The test strips are more expensive. The kit will test more times and more reliably. BTW, you may just catch a sale for the calcium hypochlorite 70% strong, ideal for fast shock.

[nocturnalsheep]

You have to keep in mind the effect that the chlorine you are using will have on your water balance. Calcium Hypochlorite, like liquid bleach, will raise your pH a considerable amount so you need to watch out for that. Also, Calcium Hypochlorite will introduce calcium into your water so you will have to keep an eye on your calcium levels and switch to a different kind of chlorine if it gets too high.

A CYA (stabilizer) level of 30 is alright, but if you want to raise it a little bit you can buy stabilizer at any pool store. What CYA does is protect your chlorine from sunlight so that the chlorine is not oxidized out of the water before it gets a chance to do any sanitizing.

As far as adding the liquid bleach, adding it in front of the returns is just fine and it won't bleach the surface of the pool unless the chlorine level gets very high. All bleach is is chlorine.

Let me know if you have any more questions!

-Danny

[nocturnalsheep]

Oh and if you really want to make sure you don't bleach the surface, you can always add the bleach in installments, predissolving each installment in a bucket of water and spreading it around the edges of your pool.

-Danny

[chem geek]

Why isn't TFP allowing new members? I wish I could get on a more active board so I can get advice. I am reading everyone's posts but need individual attention! I guess I am needy! Ha

TFP does accept new members -- about 15 every day have been joining and there are over 10,000 of them now after about 2 years. It's The PoolForum that no longer accepts new members.

If you have to get a less expensive test kit, get the 5-way at Walmart so you at least get your own Cyanuric Acid (CYA) test. Pool stores often give inaccurate results for this test and test strips do not do a good job with this test. You can use the DPD (shades of pink/red) chlorine test in the Walmart kit, but need to dilute your water if the chlorine level is above 5 ppm and unfortunately you could get fooled thinking you have no chlorine in the water when you have a lot. An inexpensive OTO (shades of yellow) chlorine test won't bleach out, but won't tell you Free Chlorine (FC) vs. Combined Chlorine (CC). I'm sorry the FAS-DPD kit isn't less expensive.

[czechmate]

I do not think that there is any considerable rise in PH after shocking with Calcium Hypochloride.
Calcium hardness after sustained use, yes. Cal-hypo is not nearly as acidic as is Trichlor and even there, we are more concerned about CYA accumulation.
PH has a nice workable range and in pools with fairly new plaster the rise of PH actually works in our favor for at least a year.
Further, you can limit the PH fluctuation, by introducing borates in your pool, by adding Boric acid or Borax.
Pool calculator will tell you the amounts needed to achieve 30-50ppm.

[chem geek]

All hypochlorite sources of chlorine (chlorinating liquid, bleach, Cal-Hypo, lithium hypochlorite) are roughly pH neutral when used over time since the initial rise in pH from these sources comes back down as the chlorine gets used up. This is because chlorine consumption/usage is acidic. However, in water that has a TA of 100 ppm and CYA of 30 ppm (as an example), adding 10 ppm FC would initially raise the pH from 7.5 to 8.0, but when this added FC was used up (came back down), the pH would drop back down if there were no other sources of pH rise (such as carbon dioxide outgassing). So it is not true that there is no pH rise from using Cal-Hypo, or any other hypochlorite source of chlorine, at least initially.

You are correct that when there is new plaster in a pool, it's curing raises the pH so acid needs to be added and that is when Trichlor tabs/pucks become useful since they are acidic. One needs to be careful, however, since Trichlor increases CYA. Even at 1 ppm FC per day chlorine usage, after 6 months of Trichlor tabs the CYA would increase by over 100 ppm if there were no water dilution.

In the above example of pH rise from hypochlorite chlorine addition, if there were 50 ppm Borates in the pool, then the pH would rise from 7.5 to 7.7 instead of 8.0. Just note that if one uses Borates in the pool, then one should not have dogs drink cups of pool water every day -- teach them to drink from a bowl of fresh water instead.

[samanthathepoolchick]

I am new to pool care, we've struggled with learning what to do all summer and I am sick of spending hundreds to get rid of algea for it to return in a week! I bought 6 of the big GV Bleach from Walmart 6% bleach. My test strips do not show my CYA (which I know nothing about). I typed everything I know about my pool into the Pool Calculator and it says I should add 622 oz to shock it. I do have algea in the bottom though and earlier in the summer we had to fight mustard algea and am not sure if it is that or not. Should I add more just in case or not? Do I have to have my CYA level tested first?
Also, how do I add the bleach, into skimmer or just pour in front of jets? This won't bleach my vinyl liner?
Im scared and if this doesn't work my husband will kill me! He thinks we should stick with listening to these people that know NOTHING at the pool store!
Any info is appreciated!
pH 7.8
FC 0 to .5
Total Alk 120
Stabilizer 30

The BBB method is no good. I am a pool proff. and a water chemistry tech. Your CYA cyanuric acid AKA stabilizer it helps keep the chlorine in your pool factors such as the sun take chlorine and your stabilizer will def help, but it wont help with the green you will want to get that in there though. I will start with why you should not use Bleach it has a PH of 13, right now your PH is good. You will need to Shock though i would give you a calcium hypochlorite shock one pound per ten thousand gallons. This shock has 74% free chlorine and the average bleach has 14%. You need tyo make sure you keep chlorine to it . Have the pool store also check your phosphates this could also play a role in the green. How long has it been since you changed your sand???

[chem geek]

The BBB method is no good. I am a pool proff. and a water chemistry tech. Your CYA cyanuric acid AKA stabilizer it helps keep the chlorine in your pool factors such as the sun take chlorine and your stabilizer will def help, but it wont help with the green you will want to get that in there though. I will start with why you should not use Bleach it has a PH of 13, right now your PH is good. You will need to Shock though i would give you a calcium hypochlorite shock one pound per ten thousand gallons. This shock has 74% free chlorine and the average bleach has 14%. You need tyo make sure you keep chlorine to it . Have the pool store also check your phosphates this could also play a role in the green. How long has it been since you changed your sand???

The BBB Method
There are over 20,000 users at The PoolForum and over 10,000 users at Trouble Free Pool who use the BBB system or variations of it (plus countless more who don't register at these sites). BBB does not mean only using bleach. It means understanding your pool and its chemistry by using a proper test kit, understanding the chlorine/CYA relationship at least as far as the appropriate FC to use at a given CYA, knowing that a high TA leads to faster pH rise when using hypochlorite sources of chlorine, etc. The system is simple, easy and very effective at preventing algae using chlorine alone. One hardly ever needs to shock the pool nor use any clarifiers, floculants, algicide, phosphate remover, or other extra products.

(to be continued...limit of 5 URLs per post)

[chem geek]

(...continued from above)

pH of Chlorine
What do you mean by your saying you are a "water chemistry tech"? If you know chemistry, then you would know that for the equivalent amount added to achieve a specific Free Chlorine (FC) level, Cal-Hypo has the pH rise upon addition the same as bleach, chlorinating liquid, or lithium hypochlorite. ALL hypochlorite sources of chlorine are high in pH and raise the pH upon addition. Also, regardless of the source of chlorine, when the chlorine gets used up, either by oxidizing an organic or by breakdown in sunlight, the process is acidic and for hypochlorite sources of chlorine the pH goes back down to where it started. The chemistry behind this is described here. Because of the acidity of chlorine usage/consumption, Dichlor is actually not near pH neutral but is net acidic and Trichlor is even more acidic than upon initial addition.

Look at any Cal-Hypo MSDS such as here and see that the pH isn't neutral, but 10.4-10.8 for a 1% solution (a 10% solution would have a pH of around 11.5) while Clorox Regular unscented bleach at 6% is around 11.9 (see here) and 12.5% chlorinating liquid is typically 12.5. So chlorinating liquid has the most "excess lye" in it, but even so this only results in a net rise of 0.1 pH units per month at 2 ppm FC per day chlorine usage.

In my own pool I use only 12.5% chlorinating liquid I get from my local pool store (since it's at a decent price and they reuse the bottles so is better than recycling). The pH in my 16,000 gallon pool (shown here) is very stable with my adding a couple of cups of acid every month or two. If the pool were not used every day (1-2 hours weekdays; longer on weekends), the pH would be even more stable. The primary source of rising pH in pools using hypochlorite sources of chlorine is the outgassing of carbon dioxide and this can be minimized by having a lower TA level (with a higher CH or target pH as needed to keep the saturation index near 0 in plaster pools). There is a small amount of "excess lye", but this contributes only to a rise in pH of 0.1 in 2 months in my pool; the other 0.2 units of the pH rise is from CO2 outgassing. Because I have a pool cover, my chlorine usage is fairly low at around 1 ppm FC per day. This costs me around $15 per month, period. And, by the way, the pool has 2000-3000 ppb phosphates due to 300-500 ppb phosphates in the fill water plus other sources, yet the pool stays algae-free using chlorine alone.

Strength of Chlorine Sources
Clorox Regular Bleach and off-brand Ultra bleach is normally 6% (off-brand regular bleach is often 3% or less). It is chlorinating liquid that is 10% or 12.5% (14% is more rare). However, all such percentages mean is the amount of chlorine PER WEIGHT of product. It has absolutely nothing to do with the effectiveness of the chlorine in the water. You simply have to add more bleach or chlorinating liquid by weight (and volume), but it's also much less expensive by weight such that overall it is comparably priced or sometimes less expensive than Cal-Hypo. A comparison of the true cost of various sources of chlorine is given here.

Side Effects of Chlorine Sources
Cal-Hypo will increase the Calcium Hardness (CH) so if the CH is already low then using Cal-Hypo is OK, but if the water is already saturated with calcium carbonate to protect plaster, then one should be careful about using too much Cal-Hypo. The following are chemical facts independent of concentration of product or of pool size and are not taught in NSPF CPO nor APSP TECH:

For every 10 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) added by Trichlor, it also increases Cyanuric Acid (CYA) by 6 ppm.
For every 10 ppm FC added by Dichlor, it also increases CYA by 9 ppm.
For every 10 ppm FC added by Cal-Hypo, it also increases Calcium Hardness (CH) by 7 ppm.

Some simple calculations show that even with a low chlorine usage of 1 ppm FC per day, continued use of Trichlor increases CYA by over 100 ppm in 6 months if there is no water dilution. Likewise with Cal-Hypo the CH increases by over 125 ppm in that same period of time. With an uncovered pool, typical chlorine usage can be double these amounts (i.e. 2 ppm FC per day).

(to be continued...limit of 5 URLs per post)

[chem geek]

(...continued from above)

The Chlorine/CYA Relationship
There is no question that killing algae requires chlorine, but the level of chlorine needed, that is the FC level, depends on the CYA level because the amount of active chlorine (hypochlorous acid) that kills algae is proportional to the FC/CYA ratio. The original definitive source for the equilibrium constants defining the chlorine/CYA relationship was published in 1974 in this paper. The derivation of why the FC/CYA ratio is a decent proxy for chlorine activity at pool pH is here. To prevent green algae growth in non-SWG pools requires a minimum FC of around 7.5% of the CYA level while for SWG pools the minimum FC is around 4.5% of the CYA level. This minimum includes the overnight loss so in practice in SWG pools with 80 ppm CYA a minimum target FC during the day is around 4 ppm.

Phosphates
Phosphates (source of phosphorous) are one of several possible limiting factors to algae growth. Others include nitrates (source of nitrogen; also nitrogen gas for cyanobacteria), carbonates and carbon dioxide (source of carbon), water, sunlight and temperature. Phosphate removers only remove (inorganic) orthophosphate so if there are small organic phosphates in the water then algae can still grow, though more slowly. Chlorine can kill algae faster than it can grow in spite of high phosphate and nitrate levels since there is a limit to such growth due to sunlight and temperature where even in the best natural conditions it takes algae 3 to 8 hours to double in population. When chlorine kills the algae faster than this timeframe, it doesn't matter how many nutrients there are in the pool.

Phosphate removers need to be seen in the same vein as algicides such as PolyQuat 60 or 50 ppm Borates or even copper. These are not necessary, though they do provide insurance to slow down algae growth if the chlorine level is not managed properly and gets too low.

Much more can be learned by reading the Pool School.

Richard

[PoolPro]

samanthathepoolchick does not know what she is talking about. I recommend that everyone ignore her advice.

Don't be concerned about phosphates. Liquid chlorine is a better source of chlorine than calcium hypochlorite. Calcium hypochlorite contains other elements, besides just calcium hypochlorite, that do increase the pH, such as Calcium hydroxide and calcium carbonate.

[czechmate]

Maybe cleaner chlorine, not necessarily better.
For fast, effective shock it hardly beats 73% Calcium Hypochloride.
If you need to shock 25 000gal pool that has a 100ppm CYA and 2ppm of AC, no professional will even consider trying to start messing with a pallet of bleach bottles.
Certainly the kitchen bleach has its advantages in normal pool maintenance, but there are limitations.
(You can drive 93 octane built engine on 89 octane also. But it's computer will retard the combustion process and at the end you will loose mpg and the spunk, without saving a dime).

[chem geek]

If you need to shock 25 000gal pool that has a 100ppm CYA and 2ppm of AC, no professional will even consider trying to start messing with a pallet of bleach bottles.

That's very true, but if the CYA is at 100 ppm the proper prescription is to start water replacement right away if possible since that has to be done anyway. It all depends on how long the pool has had the algae. If it's already long-gone, then water replacement first is better. If it's just started it's algae bloom, then hitting it hard right away with chlorine is better to prevent it from getting worse and if it's more convenient to use Cal-Hypo, then so be it.

Just keep in mind that for every 10 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) added by Cal-Hypo, it also increases Calcium Hardness (CH) by 7 ppm. So for a short-term shock, this isn't too bad and of course is no problem at all if the CH is low (say, because it's a vinyl pool). Even hitting hard with 40 ppm FC would be a CH increase of 28 ppm which is most likely not a problem unless the CH is already too high. Since one would be diluting the water anyway to lower the CYA, getting the CH a little too high isn't a big deal. One can always lower the pH first to help compensate for the saturation index anyway.

I wasn't disputing the use of Cal-Hypo per se, but rather the implication that it didn't raise the pH upon initial addition or that it's greater strength meant it was more powerful in the water.