Zerochlor

The Pool Wizard, Nature2, the Frog and other mineral systems for
simpler pool care. Non-chlorine Pristine Blue, Rainforest Blue and similar.
ZEROCHLOR
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Joined: Tue 05 Jul, 2011 10:17
My Pool: zerochlor
Location: TRNC north cyprus

Zerochlor

Postby ZEROCHLOR » Tue 05 Jul, 2011 10:34

Please feel free to visit my website.

I have been selling this product in north cyprus now for just 2 years,very good customer feedback.

Would be great to hear some feedback from some of the members here who are in the know regarding silver copper zinc and gold aluminium products used in pool sanitation.

Look forward to hearing your views.


chem geek
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Zerochlor

Postby chem geek » Wed 06 Jul, 2011 04:13

Copper and silver ions do not kill most pathogens as quickly as chlorine. See the chart in this post and note that copper ions do not kill nor even inhibit fecal bacteria while the combination of copper and silver is mostly 50 times slower in kill rates than chlorine and are not very effective against viruses nor protozoa (or their oocysts, though chlorine is slow for oocysts as well). This is generally fast enough to prevent uncontrolled bacterial growth, but not fast enough to prevent person-to-person transmission of disease. This is why metal ions alone are not allowed in commercial/public pools in many countries (U.S., Australia, Germany, etc.) without a fast-acting bulk water sanitizer such as chlorine, bromine or Baquacil/biguanide/PHMB.

According to your website, you use and maintain potassium monopersulfate (MPS) in the pool as well, mostly for oxidation of bather waste. MPS does also help control pathogens, but is again slow to kill except at hot spa temperatures where the combination of silver ion and MPS has kill times roughly comparable to that of chlorine and is able to pass EPA DIS/TSS-12 with the Nature2 product for spas, though this is not the case for pools.

On this page of your website, it says the following:

When you dose chlorine into a pool, the chlorine breaks up into two components, chlorine gas and chlorine salts. The chlorine gas is the dis-infection agent while the salt is a by-product and nuisance in the filter. It usually gradually blocks the sand filter.

Normally the chlorine gas is volatile it will stay active in the pool for approximately 20 minutes. There after there is no or very little residual effect on the swimming pool water. Because of the volatility of the product it will have an even shorter active life span at higher temperatures. Any contamination of any kind that enters the facility after the twenty minutes will go untreated until the next dosing of the pool.

It is not true that adding chlorine to the pool produces chlorine gas (at least not in any significant quantities). It produces mostly hypochlorous acid and hypochlorite ion unless Cyanuric Acid (CYA) is present in which case most of the chlorine is bound to CYA in a series of compounds called chlorinated isocyanurates. The sodium chloride salt that results from chlorine use (and pH adjustment for some types of chlorine) does NOT block the sand filter. Salt remains fully dissolved in the water and never gets close to saturation which would be on the order of 360,000 ppm. Ocean water is around 35,000 ppm while saltwater chlorine generator pools are around 3000 ppm and most other pools are around 500-1500 ppm salt.

The chlorine in a pool is not particularly volatile, but if not protected by CYA (aka stabilizer or conditioner) it will break down from UV in sunlight, roughly losing half every hour in direct overhead sun. Most outdoor residential pools have CYA in the water, either from initial addition or from use of stabilized chlorine products (e.g. Trichlor and Dichlor). It is absolutely not true that the chlorine is lost as quickly as your website describes -- not with CYA in the water and not with the low bather load associated with most residential pools. It is true that commercial/public pools with high bather load have higher chlorine demand, but such facilities usually have continuous dosing from peristaltic pumps or use saltwater chlorine generators, or are tested and dosed manually every few hours.

ZeroChlor will reduce skin allergies and prevent ear infections. No more red or burning eyes while swimming in a pool treated with ZeroChlor.

Very few people have a true allergy to chlorine at the level in a properly maintained pool. The active chlorine level in a residential pool with CYA in the water and enough FC to prevent algae growth (i.e. an FC that is at least 7.5% of the CYA level) is less than the equivalent of 0.1 ppm FC with no CYA. Ear infections largely come from water getting into the ear with the moisture allowing already existing bacteria in the ear to grow -- it is usually not from bacteria in the pool itself and is certainly no more likely in a chlorinated pool than in a pool using Zerochlor. Red or burning eyes is more often caused by chloramines in an improperly managed pool or by a very out-of-range pH. A properly chlorinated pool using CYA will have almost no chlorine smell, no chloramine smell, no irritation. Eye irritation also comes from the fact that tears and body fluids have around 9000 ppm salt so the lower salt level of pools causes osmotic pressure in the eye as water flows into the eye. This same effect is what makes fingers water-logged (i.e. get wrinkles). Saltwater chlorine generator pools have 3000 ppm so have less of this effect and one can increase the salt level in manually dosed pools if desired.

On this page of your website, it says the following:

ZeroChlor is a saturated complex ionic aqueous solution containing copper, silver, zinc, aluminium and gold. The microscopic action of these natural mineral ions with the algae and bacteria are twofold. First, the algae and bacteria in the water are destroyed through a change in their enzyme processes as the ions break down their DNA structures and cell walls. Secondly, all these charged particles floc together so a filter can trap them. The ions maintain a stable 'ZeroChlor' residual in the water until this process uses them up.

Though copper and silver have the slow disinfecting properties I wrote about earlier in this post, most of these metal ions do not form a floc to trap particles in the filter. The main exception is aluminum if your product adds enough to be like an alum floc, but normally this is something that needs to settle to the bottom of the pool with the pump off. It sounds like you are using a much smaller amount that you hope to act more like a clarifier to get caught in the filter.

The residual level of ZeroChlor is to be monitored by testing the water for copper content, using the ZeroChlor test kits. The target level is 0.4-0.8mg/l of copper. It should be noted that the UK and EU maximum allowable limit for copper in drinking water is 2.0mg/l, so your pool water would be well within this limit.

The level of 0.4-0.8 mg/L of copper is a level to prevent algae growth in most cases, but is also a level that can stain pool surfaces and tint blond hair if the pH gets too high.

Oxidation S2O8(2-) + 2Cu(2+) ---> 2Cu(3+) + 2SO4(2-)

Reduction 6Cu(3+) + 2NH3 ---> 6Cu(2+) + N2 + 6H+

This is so wrong on so many levels. First of all, the S2O8(2-) is persulfate that is a minor contaminant in MPS products. It is true that it is the primary component that reacts with silver ions (and perhaps copper) as I write about in this post . Monopersulfate (peroxymonosulfate) is HSO5(-) and oxidizes ammonia directly as follows:

3HSO5(-) + 2NH3 ---> N2(g) + 3H+ + 3SO4(2-) + 3H2O
Monopersulfate + Ammonia ---> Nitrogen Gas + Hydrogen Ion + Sulfate Ion + Water

However, according to this paper , the above reaction is slow and instead the path is that monopersulfate (especially from UV in sunlight) forms sulfate radicals that react with chloride ions in the water to form chlorine that then oxidizes the ammonia.

The reaction you show as "Reduction" is a reaction showing oxidation of ammonia (the copper is reduced), but it is really monopersulfate that oxidizes ammonia (indirectly) since there is very little of the trivalent copper and divalent silver ions present. It has been said that MPS will oxidize ammonia and some other bather waste without formation of combined chlorine, but though that may be true for some organics, I don't think it's true for avoidance of chloramines from ammonia. It does not do a great job of oxidizing urea or some other compounds which is why spas using Nature2 with MPS also need to shock with chlorine every week or two. Chlorine in an outdoor pool, in particular, is effective at oxidizing bather waste not only because of the chlorine, but also because when the chlorine breaks down by the UV in sunlight, it forms hydroxyl free radicals that are powerful oxidizers and might explain control of urea and other slow-to-oxidize compounds. MPS in sunlight should also form hydroxyl free radicals (and sulfate radicals as well).

(continued with next post)
chem geek
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Zerochlor

Postby chem geek » Wed 06 Jul, 2011 04:16

(continued from previous post)

ZeroChlor Regenerator is 100-percent soluble and will not leave a residue or bleach vinyl liners or swimming suits. As with any oxidiser, its dosage in the pool mainly depends on the bathing load on the pool, and the temperature of the water.

A properly chlorinated pool with CYA in the water will not bleach vinyl liners or swim suits. My wife has experienced the difference between an over-chlorinated pool not using CYA vs. a properly managed pool. During the 5-month winter season, she uses an indoor commercial/public pool at a community center that has 1-2 ppm FC with no CYA and her swimsuits get shot (elasticity wears out) in just one winter season and her hair is frizzier and skin more dried out as well. During our 7-month summer swim season in our own pool with 3-6 ppm FC and 40 ppm CYA, her swimsuits do not degrade and her skin and hair do not show the same ill effects. This is because our pool has the equivalent of around 0.1 ppm FC with no CYA so the indoor pool has 10-20 times the active chlorine level and fully explains the problems that are experienced. The chlorine/CYA relationship is known science definitively determined since at least 1974 as described in this paper .

On this page of your website, the links you show and virtually all studies showing health problems are with indoor chlorinated pools. Such pools usually do not use CYA and have much higher active chlorine levels. They also tend to be high bather load commercial/public pools. Outdoor residential pools with low bather load are much safer due to lower active chlorine levels, lower bather loads, sunlight (UV) exposure and better air circulation (i.e. wind).

At least Zerochlor uses both copper and silver so is better than copper-only systems and at least you use an oxidizer (MPS) to handle bather waste. While not as disinfected as using chlorine, it is better than some other alternative products that are available. Just be careful not to let the pH get too high or else you'll have problems with the metal ions staining.

There are tens of thousands of pool owners using only chlorine to disinfect their pools with a proper understanding of the chlorine/CYA relationship and without the need for algaecide, phosphate remover, flocculant, clarifier, enzymes or other products and report here and at The PoolForum and at Trouble Free Pool and at other forums. My 16,000 gallon pool is shown here and here where it costs me only $15 per month in chlorine and a small amount of acid. I have a mostly opaque pool cover with the pool used 1-2 hours every day (longer on weekends) so my chlorine usage is lower than usual (though the pool is kept warm at 88ºF for use as a therapy pool), but even without a cover I would be spending no more than $30 per month. The pump electricity cost far exceeds the chemical cost (electric rates are high where I live).
ZEROCHLOR
Pool Newbie
Pool Newbie
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue 05 Jul, 2011 10:17
My Pool: zerochlor
Location: TRNC north cyprus

Zerochlor

Postby ZEROCHLOR » Wed 06 Jul, 2011 07:52

Thanks for the reply,very interesting,whenyou say do not let the PH get to high,we normally keep the PH around 7.2 to 7.6, would you think that level is good or do you think that could cause staining,or maybe higher PH would cause staining?
I notice you say (This is why metal ions alone are not allowed in commercial/public pools in many countries (U.S., Australia, Germany, etc.) Hilton hotels use this product, poolsanuk.com and they use this in many public pools without the use of chlorine,the regen they use is potasium monopersulphate also,there product if you look at it is the same as mine or almost the same.
Here is a pool that is useing zerochlor,we look after it and do not use any chlorine,but we do use Regen to oxodise.

In 2 years looking after now almost 140 pools under zerochlor we have not used chlorine as the oxodiser,only P/mono.
Thanks very much for your very helpful information,looking forward to reading more from you.
chem geek
Pool Industry Leader
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Zerochlor

Postby chem geek » Wed 06 Jul, 2011 23:08

As for pH, keeping it at or below 7.4 should prevent staining if you make sure the copper ion level does not exceed 0.8 mg/L. At 0.4 mg/L then 7.6 should be OK. If the pH rises to 7.8 or 8.0 then staining is much more likely. Note that the PoolSan website states that "The pH needs to be tested using the PoolSan Pooltester and maintained at between 7.0 and 7.4 with 7.2 being the desired target."

You'll notice that I did not list the U.K. nor Cyprus in the list of countries. You could not use your system in ANY commercial/public pool in the U.S., Australia, Germany, France or many other countries without being in violation of regional laws. In the U.S. such laws are generally by state and county. The reason is quite simple: your product cannot meet the fast kill rates defined in standard bacterial tests. Note that none of these countries have any requirements for disinfection in residential pools (France has some for pools in residences that are rented out).

As shown in this link , in the U.K. "there are no specific health and safety regulations governing swimming pools (or paddling pools and other non-standard facilities)." In the U.K., some companies such as ProMinent United Kingdom design and build public pools that follow German DIN 19643 standards which require chlorine, but this is not a U.K. requirement.

So you are very fortunate to be selling your product in a country that has no disinfection requirements or standards required of all commercial/public pools such as DIN 19643 or EPA DIS/TSS-12 . Even though your specific pools are not as adequately disinfected, most pools in the U.K. are nevertheless treated with chlorine which has resulted in very low numbers of disease via swimming pools from E.coli O157 as described in this paper . Remember that copper ions at the level in your pool have absolutely no effect on E.coli while silver ions take 50 minutes for a 99.9% kill (3-log reduction) while a Free Chlorine (FC) level that is 10% of the Cyanuric Acid (CYA) level (equivalent in hypochlorous acid level to an FC that is 0.1 ppm with no CYA) takes less than 1 minute for that same level of kill. So your system would likely prevent uncontrolled bacterial growth, but would not necessarily prevent person-to-person transmission of disease.
ZEROCHLOR
Pool Newbie
Pool Newbie
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue 05 Jul, 2011 10:17
My Pool: zerochlor
Location: TRNC north cyprus

Zerochlor

Postby ZEROCHLOR » Thu 07 Jul, 2011 02:37

Thanks for the reply.

Im wondering about landmark hotel/s and hilton hotels and also with what you are saying why they have choosen to use poolsan in there pools in different parts of the world including the UK if taken with what you are saying,which i am not daubting you,why they should choose to go this route with there pools.

Is it possible that the kill time of this product is less than 50mins.
ZEROCHLOR
Pool Newbie
Pool Newbie
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue 05 Jul, 2011 10:17
My Pool: zerochlor
Location: TRNC north cyprus

Zerochlor

Postby ZEROCHLOR » Thu 07 Jul, 2011 02:59

Hi again Chem Geek.

So lets say we are to oxodise with some chlorine,what would you say is the recomended level to use lets say on a 8x4 pool with around 60,000 litres of water if already useing zerochlor or poolsan and how often would you use the chlorine?
chem geek
Pool Industry Leader
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Posts: 2382
Joined: Thu 21 Jun, 2007 21:27
Location: San Rafael, California

Zerochlor

Postby chem geek » Thu 07 Jul, 2011 11:47

ZEROCHLOR wrote:Im wondering about landmark hotel/s and hilton hotels and also with what you are saying why they have choosen to use poolsan in there pools in different parts of the world including the UK if taken with what you are saying,which i am not daubting you,why they should choose to go this route with there pools.

Because you are a good salesman. If Hilton Hotels tried to use this system in the U.S., Australia, Germany, France or many other (but not all) countries, then if the health inspectors in those areas found out about it, they would shut the pools down until they were properly disinfected. I already wrote in my post above how the U.K. does not have specific disinfection requirements so why do you bring up the UK again? I've contacted Hilton Worldwide supply management and Landmark Hotel Group to make them aware of this potential issue.

ZEROCHLOR wrote:Is it possible that the kill time of this product is less than 50mins.

Because you are also using non-chlorine shock (MPS) the kill times are probably a little faster than that measured with silver ions alone. However, I've talked to Dupont about this in the past with regard to Nature2 (silver ions) and MPS in hot tubs and their internal data shows that kill times at pool temperatures are much lower. Note that the primary active constituent of MPS is HSO5(-) which is negatively charged. Just as hypochlorite ion which is negatively charged is much less effective than hypochlorous acid which is neutral (and looks more like water), it is unlikely for MPS to have fast disinfection since the surface of most cells is negatively charged. As I had already noted in this post I linked to earlier (have you been reading the links I have provided?), Gerba's paper said that "At 77ºF Potassium Monopersulfate provided only 16.8% inactivation of E.coli bacteria in 2 minutes, but at 104ºF it provided >99.9999% inactivation." However, Dupont disputes this (they make MPS) for the 104ºF value. So a 17% inactivation of E.coli in 2 minutes would be a 99.9% inactivation (3-log reduction) in 74 minutes. So perhaps the combined effect of the MPS and the silver ion might improve the overall kill time down to 20-30 minutes though that is a speculative guess. It is still way too slow to pass the standard bacterial tests required for use in commercial/public pools in most (but not all) developed countries.
chem geek
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Joined: Thu 21 Jun, 2007 21:27
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Zerochlor

Postby chem geek » Thu 07 Jul, 2011 12:22

ZEROCHLOR wrote:So lets say we are to oxodise with some chlorine,what would you say is the recomended level to use lets say on a 8x4 pool with around 60,000 litres of water if already useing zerochlor or poolsan and how often would you use the chlorine?

The amount of oxidizer that is needed in commercial/public pools that are typically high bather load, be it with MPS or chlorine, is a function of bather load. Roughly speaking, in a typical properly managed pool the requirement is around 4 grams of chlorine (measured as Cl2 weight equivalent) per bather-hour and this is independent of pool size. This is equivalent in oxidation power to 46 grams of 43% MPS (the usual concentration of the MPS component in the triple-salt Oxone product from Dupont). This is the same as 74 ml of 12.5% chlorinating liquid, 14 grams of 65% Cal-Hypo, 10 grams of Trichlor or 17 grams of Dichlor. Note that these amounts are typical, but competitive swimmers use a lot more (more than double) while casual bathers who don't swim might use somewhat less and of course urinary discharge incidents will require a lot more oxidizer.

So the above gives you a rough idea of oxidizer demand, though in reality you measure MPS or chlorine levels and maintain them since you want to provide disinfection, not just a supply for oxidation. Also, residential pools are typically low bather load so the amount required is more related to the MPS loss from water dilution and oxidation of pool materials. This PoolSan page talks about how "High volume bather pools, commercial, may need to treat with PoolSan Regenerator more frequently. This can be checked by testing oxygen levels, that should be between 3.0 – 8.0 mg/l (ppm) using PoolSan Pooltester."

I'm not sure I understand your question with regard to chlorine. Are you asking how much would be needed to provide additional oxidation to keep water clear, as is usually needed in spas that use MPS? That would typically be a once a week shock amount, usually not more than 10 ppm FC. However, since your pools have no CYA in them this would be too harsh unless done overnight and then dechlorinated to lower the level. You didn't say you had any cloudiness issues in your pools so I'm not sure this was the intent of your question.

If instead you mean how much chlorine to use for proper disinfection in those areas that require it, the answer depends on the region. Where DIN 19643 is used, there is more than just a chlorine requirement, but the chlorine level itself must be in the range of 0.3 to 0.6 ppm FC if no ozone is used or 0.2 to 0.5 ppm FC if ozone is used. For the EPA in the U.S. and for most other countries, the minimum FC is 1 ppm, though for copper/silver ionization systems as shown for NSF Standard 50 certified products , one can use a minimum FC of 0.4 ppm. So basically, I would say that the minimum of 0.4 ppm FC (with no CYA) covers you everywhere. However, note that maintaining such low FC levels in outdoor pools exposed to sunlight without having any CYA in the water is difficult and requires continuous feeding of chlorine in the circulation system that must be running all day.

So the advantage of your system in areas that require chlorine is that the chlorine level can be somewhat lower, but the cost of MPS is far higher than chlorine so this really isn't very economical. The main advantage of using the MPS is that it can oxidize bather waste before chlorine forms some combined chlorine -- that is, it is a way to reduce disinfection by-products so that's a good thing. Obviously in pools not using any chlorine there are no chlorinated disinfection by-products, but note that if you have bromide in your fill water that the MPS will oxidize bromide to bromine which can give you some additional sanitation in your pool, but generally one wants to avoid bromine as its disinfection by-products (trihalomethanes) are generally worse (more carcinogenic) than the chlorinated ones.
ZEROCHLOR
Pool Newbie
Pool Newbie
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue 05 Jul, 2011 10:17
My Pool: zerochlor
Location: TRNC north cyprus

Zerochlor

Postby ZEROCHLOR » Fri 08 Jul, 2011 01:19

Good morning or evening chem geek.

Thanks for the very informative replies.

My questions where really all regarding residential pools and non where cloudy.

I was just looking for your opinion on what amount of chlorine you thought was the correct amount to be useing if already useing zerochlor or poolsan.

Anyway i think you have coverd all bases.

Again thanks for your time and great knowledge.

Happy chlorine free swimming folks :)

Or should that be .

Almost happy chlorine free swimming folks!

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