Who to believe - "byhand" or computerized water test?

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Henry_R
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My Pool: HOA Community Swimming pool built approx. 1971.
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Location: Houston, Texas USA

Who to believe - "byhand" or computerized water test?

Postby Henry_R » Wed 27 Jul, 2011 19:30

Ok, I didn't find another place to ask this so I put it here. I am helping maintain a community HOA pool.
(I had to do this a couple of years ago whilst we were not using the pool since it needed replastering. So I know a little about how to do it but I'm no expert.)

It is a Plaster/Gunite pool. 36'x18' 3.5' to 6' deep. Details should show up in my profile. We just bought a new Hayward sand filter w/ side multiport side mount valve over Memorial Day weekend. It has worked well so far as I can tell. The old filter was as much as 25 year old and the sand of indeterminant age.

Our pool man failed us two weeks ago (July 11th) by letting our pool turn green for the third time in 8 weeks through the tablet feeder going empty. He's been fired when he gave us too many excuses and failed to show up.
Until we find another service we can afford we have to do this ourselves. We had the water tested at a Leslie's pools store which determined the CYA was >100ppm and phosphates were >1000 while chlorine was <1 or 0. This explained the green. That was two weeks ago on Thursday the 14th. They sold us some PhosFree, NoMorProblems and algaecide along with some trichlor and 73% cal-hypo. We also bought a vacuum and hose.

We had a company to bid on the pool who wanted to charge way too much for our meger budget, but they told us we should drain 2 feet of water out to get the CYA down. We did this Saturday(16th) and filled it back up. Using the cal-hypo shock and trichlor tablets in the feeder set at #2 on a scale of 0-10. Vacuumed the dead algae off the bottom. It has remained clean of algae, but not fully clear. Chlorine was in the 2-4 range on Monday (18th) after we refilled it. We've had swimmers in there with no issues nor complaints reported. I put some shock (about 1lb or so) in early on this past Sunday (24th) morning since we had a large amount of bathers on Saturday night and were expecting a small pool party on Sunday evening.

The only thing that has been a concern is that the water is not fullly clear. The bottom drain is barely visible whereas before the issue with the green pool is was usually crystal clear. We are only using the skimmer the bottom drain has been plugged up since the 1980s due to a leak.

Now today (27th), I took a sample of water to a pool store I trust. The last time I went there they were doing the tests by hand. Now they're using a computerized tester (ClearCare(tm) Expert) which shows the TC=9.89(high), FAC=9.89(high), CC=0, TA=113,pH=7.6, CH=363, CYA=47,Copper=0,Iron=0,TDS=1000, Saturation Index=0.3
The man put drops of water on a machine which gave a reading on the computer. Not just entering it manually as I've seen most times.

My neighbor who is also part of the maintenance commitee doing work on the pool took took a sample of water to Leslie's Pools and they did a normal manual test. That test shows the chlorine to be low and CYA very high >100 as it was two weeks ago. They told her to shut off the chlorine feeder and shock it again. They also sold us some clarifier for the loudy water too.

The person at Leslie's is one of the experienced clerks we have trusted in the past, but we are always sold something by her rather expensive, IMO. ex. algaecide when the pool is green. This is why I went to the smaller store for the test.

So this leads to my subject of this post. I have a delema. Who do we believe? The computer or the person?
I'm being instructed by the Board here to follow the Leslie's advice, but I really am not sure if it's accurate
information and I don't want to make the pool have more problems than it has had. The chemistry is almost right and I don't want it to go green again.

I cannot find any information on the computer unit used for the test online. The printout says "ClearCare(tm) Expert pool water analysis system". I tried to find information on this testing system and keep coming up with contact lens care. ARG! :? :?: Is there any one here who knows about it?

The last question I have is how much does water temperature affect the test results? The computerized test results were given based on 90-101 degree water. I had the water outside for a while before going into the store. I ride the bus, but it shouldn't have been 90-101 degrees I don't think. Does this skew the test any?

Sorry to be long winded...

Hopefully someone can advise me.

Thank you,

Henry


Money talks!? All it ever says to me is "goodbye!".
chem geek
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Who to believe - "byhand" or computerized water test?

Postby chem geek » Thu 28 Jul, 2011 00:57

Get your own good test kit -- either the Taylor K-2006 or the TFTestkits TF-100. Also, read the Pool School to learn more so you don't get "pool stored". You really need to know the accurate CYA level since a higher CYA will require a higher FC level to be effective and if very high then water dilution would be the thing to do.
Henry_R
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Posts: 126
Joined: Fri 20 Mar, 2009 21:41
My Pool: HOA Community Swimming pool built approx. 1971.
In-Ground, Plaster 34x18 3.5-6' deep, Sta-rite P2R A5D-120L pump, A.O. Smith centurion 1HP (uprated 1.25HP) motor,Hayward S244S filter(new 2011), Rainbow Lifegard Chlorine/Bomine feeder; new replastered June 2010
Location: Houston, Texas USA

Who to believe - "byhand" or computerized water test?

Postby Henry_R » Thu 28 Jul, 2011 09:07

chem geek wrote:Get your own good test kit -- either the Taylor K-2006 or the TFTestkits TF-100. Also, read the Pool School to learn more so you don't get "pool stored". You really need to know the accurate CYA level since a higher CYA will require a higher FC level to be effective and if very high then water dilution would be the thing to do.
I agree with getting the test kit. And I have read the Pool School. I've been through this stuff in the past with this pool, but that was when I wasn't expecting anyone to swim (pool was being kept closed for remodel). Now, it's open and I have to make sure things are balanced and swimable for my neighbors until we find a competent pool service who won't charge us $500 a month because it's mid-summer and they think because we're an HOA we have unlimited money. :evil: Every company has bid that much or more and don't seem to be doing more than the companies we've had in the past.

Problem is my neighbor who is also helping with the pool did not and will not follow what I say and is in charge, not me. She will believe whomever she assumes to be an "expert". And ass-u-mes that the Leslie's pool clerk who seems to be experienced is THE person to ask for issues. Ignoring that everytime there's a problem she comes away with a bill and chemicals costing $$.

I will work on making an order for the TF100. I also have to convince those who will reimburse me for it that we must buy it rather than the cheapo $30 kit from somewhere like Leslie's which they are out of stock of now anyway. And that won't be until tonight. But that kit, even if I ordered it today or tonight will take until the end of next week to arrive. Who's test should I believe in the mean time? I put clarifier in there around 10 pm last night so I expect to have to vac out some stuff now.

[edit] I just checked it and there was brown stuff on the bottom from the clarifier, I gather. I vac'd the bottom and it looks better than before. Maybe that's all it needed to become clear, but I still don't know whether to believe the human or the computer chlorine test. It's going to be around 98 w/ 105 heat index again today.

I also got a lead on the maker of the testing computer thing the guy used. This is it: http://www.clearcarecoverage.com/ [Edit]
Money talks!? All it ever says to me is "goodbye!".
chem geek
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Who to believe - "byhand" or computerized water test?

Postby chem geek » Fri 29 Jul, 2011 01:34

I honestly can't tell you whom to believe. It's not just poor test equipment, but poorly trained people (i.e. temporary summer help) that can be a problem as well. That's why it's really important to get a quality test kit and do the testing yourself. If you order the TF-100, you will get it VERY fast -- their shipping is very fast. Amato Industries is much slower and will take about a week, probably similar to Leslie's (but cheaper).

I'm not sure where you are getting $100. The TF-100 is $68 and even with shipping isn't going to be $100. Nevertheless, you really get what you pay for with this kit as it has more volume of reagents that you use the most.
Henry_R
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Posts: 126
Joined: Fri 20 Mar, 2009 21:41
My Pool: HOA Community Swimming pool built approx. 1971.
In-Ground, Plaster 34x18 3.5-6' deep, Sta-rite P2R A5D-120L pump, A.O. Smith centurion 1HP (uprated 1.25HP) motor,Hayward S244S filter(new 2011), Rainbow Lifegard Chlorine/Bomine feeder; new replastered June 2010
Location: Houston, Texas USA

Who to believe - "byhand" or computerized water test?

Postby Henry_R » Fri 29 Jul, 2011 06:57

chem geek wrote:I honestly can't tell you whom to believe. It's not just poor test equipment, but poorly trained people (i.e. temporary summer help) that can be a problem as well. That's why it's really important to get a quality test kit and do the testing yourself. If you order the TF-100, you will get it VERY fast -- their shipping is very fast. Amato Industries is much slower and will take about a week, probably similar to Leslie's (but cheaper).

I'm not sure where you are getting $100. The TF-100 is $68 and even with shipping isn't going to be $100. Nevertheless, you really get what you pay for with this kit as it has more volume of reagents that you use the most.
I see. The thing is in both cases the person who performed the test is a long time associate of the store. The man who performed my test is a manager of the store and he's no spring chicken. It's a small family owned store. The same can be said of the lady my neighbor delt with a Leslie's; we first shopped there in 2009 and she was there then too.

Anyway, I do want to get a TF100, but I still have to wait for it and I don't have the money until I'm authorized so I can be reimbursed. I did not hear from my HOA last night so I'm waiting.

I'm on fixed money and with the gvmt crap going on in Washington threatening my income :evil: I can't spring money I might not get back right away.

Is there any likelyhood of a local pool store or anywhere else in Houston carrying a TF100 kit? Or is it only sold from that place you linked to above? If it were local we could go in with an HOA check-in-hand and purchase it rather than waiting for shipment. The HOA doesn't have a CC which would of course make thing easier.

BTW, is it worth getting the XL option with that TF100 if order it?
Money talks!? All it ever says to me is "goodbye!".
chem geek
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Who to believe - "byhand" or computerized water test?

Postby chem geek » Fri 29 Jul, 2011 10:55

The TF-100 is only available online. The Taylor K-2006 might be available at some store, but unlikely since they normally carry the K-2005 which is not the same thing (it uses the DPD chlorine test instead of the FAS-DPD chlorine test you really need). As for the XL, you probably don't need that amount of reagents unless you are cleaning up a swamp and have high FC levels you are testing frequently. The reagents don't last forever -- the DPD powder and FAS-DPD titrating drops shouldn't go for more than about 2 years (Taylor recommends replacement every year, but you can usually go longer if you keep them in a cool dry place).
Henry_R
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Posts: 126
Joined: Fri 20 Mar, 2009 21:41
My Pool: HOA Community Swimming pool built approx. 1971.
In-Ground, Plaster 34x18 3.5-6' deep, Sta-rite P2R A5D-120L pump, A.O. Smith centurion 1HP (uprated 1.25HP) motor,Hayward S244S filter(new 2011), Rainbow Lifegard Chlorine/Bomine feeder; new replastered June 2010
Location: Houston, Texas USA

Who to believe - "byhand" or computerized water test?

Postby Henry_R » Fri 29 Jul, 2011 21:29

chem geek wrote:The TF-100 is only available online. The Taylor K-2006 might be available at some store, but unlikely since they normally carry the K-2005 which is not the same thing (it uses the DPD chlorine test instead of the FAS-DPD chlorine test you really need). As for the XL, you probably don't need that amount of reagents unless you are cleaning up a swamp and have high FC levels you are testing frequently. The reagents don't last forever -- the DPD powder and FAS-DPD titrating drops shouldn't go for more than about 2 years (Taylor recommends replacement every year, but you can usually go longer if you keep them in a cool dry place).
RATS! Ok, I'll have to order it. Wow the shipping is a lot for USPS priority mail which I prefer. FedEx Home is cheapest, but I've had nothing but troubles with them not finding my condo and delaying shipment for days. I've even waited all day home here to have them not show up at all. :problem:

I have to email TFTKits and see if they can send it by FedEx Ground instead. They have a delivery instruction field on the order form, but I'm not sure if they'll follow what I say.
I cannot call them 'fore I have no long distance service on my phone. Oh well so much for getting the kit fast.

How long should it take for chlorine to decay if it really was at 9.89? I'm going to have to ass-u-me that the chlorine was high since we've had bathers in there and it's not becoming a swamp. There are none of the telltale signs of algae that I usually associate with algae forming.

It's been almost two days and I've had the tablet feeder shut off since Wednesday evening and have not added any more chlorine. The water is free of algae, but as before it's not fully clear either.
In the pool light which is LED based I can see what looks like silt suspended in the water.
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chem geek
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Who to believe - "byhand" or computerized water test?

Postby chem geek » Sat 30 Jul, 2011 02:18

How fast the FC drops depends on whether the pool is in full sun and on the CYA level. At CYA levels of around 50 ppm, 40-50% of the FC can be lost in a long summer day. At 80 ppm CYA, the loss is around 20-25%. At 30 ppm CYA, the loss is around 70%. If you have high bather load then that loss can be higher than that from sunlight.
Henry_R
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Posts: 126
Joined: Fri 20 Mar, 2009 21:41
My Pool: HOA Community Swimming pool built approx. 1971.
In-Ground, Plaster 34x18 3.5-6' deep, Sta-rite P2R A5D-120L pump, A.O. Smith centurion 1HP (uprated 1.25HP) motor,Hayward S244S filter(new 2011), Rainbow Lifegard Chlorine/Bomine feeder; new replastered June 2010
Location: Houston, Texas USA

Who to believe - "byhand" or computerized water test?

Postby Henry_R » Sun 31 Jul, 2011 02:18

chem geek wrote:How fast the FC drops depends on whether the pool is in full sun and on the CYA level.
At CYA levels of around 50 ppm, 40-50% of the FC can be lost in a long summer day. At 80 ppm CYA, the loss is around 20-25%. At 30 ppm CYA, the loss is around 70%. If you have high bather load then that loss can be higher than that from sunlight.
OK. This confirms that the CYA is at least 100 as now two different tests have indicated. I had the water tested again. I have to rely on the pool store people until my kit is ordered and received. :eh:

The test indicated the TC/FC was at least 4 and CC=0 with CYA around 100. pH about 7.5 or 7.6 so it hasn't changed by much. CH has bounced up to 500 for some reason with no addition of chlorine power since last weekend. :? I looked at these results myself and the colors seemed to be right, FWIW. I guess I need to replace some water to get the CYA and CH down, not fun...

I need to add some cal-hypo in the morning based on these numbers. 2lbs I think.
Will if be OK to swim in the afternoon if I shock it in the morning with the water holding
chlorine so well as it is though? It's taken 4 days to drop chlorine from >9.8 to 4.
Perhaps I need to warn people to rinse well after bathing?

Lastly, how does one gauge how much chlorine is added for each notch on the chlorine tablet feeder? When we drained and refilled the pool three weeks ago I set the feeder to #2 to provide chlorine and this was obviously too much since the CYA bounced back up. Is there a formula or something for each setting of how much chlorine it provides?

I know each trichlor tab provides an amount of chlorine and CYA so there has to be a formula for each setting on the feeder. The feeder is a rainbow lifeguard type. It's old probably from the 80s or 90s.
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chem geek
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Who to believe - "byhand" or computerized water test?

Postby chem geek » Sun 31 Jul, 2011 23:08

The following are chemical facts that are independent of concentration of product or of pool size:

For every 10 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) added by Trichlor, it also increases Cyanuric Acid (CYA) by 6 ppm.
For every 10 ppm FC added by Dichlor, it also increases CYA by 9 ppm.
For every 10 ppm FC added by Cal-Hypo, it also increases Calcium Hardness (CH) by at least 7 ppm.

You are right that with your high CYA especially, and to a lesser extent with your somewhat high (though still manageable) CH, you need to dilute your water to lower these levels. As you can see from the above, even at a daily 1.5 ppm FC per day loss which is what you are seeing, that's an increase in CYA of over 25 ppm PER MONTH from Trichlor.

You need to check your county/state regulations since your HOA may fall under commercial/public pools and have very specific requirements for various chemical levels. If there is a maximum FC limit that is lower than I suggest, then you'll have to follow that limit and use alternative means to prevent algae growth, such as using Polyquat 60 weekly (at extra cost).

With your 100+ ppm CYA, if you maintain the FC level at around 10 ppm using chlorinating liquid or bleach so as not to raise the CYA nor CH levels, then you will prevent algae growth unless the CYA level is more like 200 ppm. With your high CYA level, a high FC level will not be harsh on swimsuits, skin or hair. 10 ppm FC with 100 ppm CYA is roughly equivalent in active chlorine level to a pool with only 0.1 ppm FC and no CYA. The only issue with the higher FC level is if people were to drink very large quantities of pool water on a regular basis (which obviously they shouldn't be doing anyway).

You should get your CYA level closer to 50 ppm. You should also consider using chlorinating liquid and getting an automatic dosing system such as a peristaltic pump or The Liquidator. If you want to continue to use Trichlor tabs, then you'll need to use a supplemental algaecide such as Polyquat 60 weekly or a phosphate remover or use 50 ppm Borates. Even so, the regs will probably require you to dilute the water to keep the CYA under 100 ppm.
Henry_R
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Posts: 126
Joined: Fri 20 Mar, 2009 21:41
My Pool: HOA Community Swimming pool built approx. 1971.
In-Ground, Plaster 34x18 3.5-6' deep, Sta-rite P2R A5D-120L pump, A.O. Smith centurion 1HP (uprated 1.25HP) motor,Hayward S244S filter(new 2011), Rainbow Lifegard Chlorine/Bomine feeder; new replastered June 2010
Location: Houston, Texas USA

Who to believe - "byhand" or computerized water test?

Postby Henry_R » Mon 01 Aug, 2011 02:47

chem geek wrote:The following are chemical facts that are independent of concentration of product or of pool size:

For every 10 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) added by Trichlor, it also increases Cyanuric Acid (CYA) by 6 ppm.
For every 10 ppm FC added by Dichlor, it also increases CYA by 9 ppm.
For every 10 ppm FC added by Cal-Hypo, it also increases Calcium Hardness (CH) by at least 7 ppm.

You are right that with your high CYA especially, and to a lesser extent with your somewhat high (though still manageable) CH, you need to dilute your water to lower these levels. As you can see from the above, even at a daily 1.5 ppm FC per day loss which is what you are seeing, that's an increase in CYA of over 25 ppm PER MONTH from Trichlor.

You need to check your county/state regulations since your HOA may fall under commercial/public pools and have very specific requirements for various chemical levels. If there is a maximum FC limit that is lower than I suggest, then you'll have to follow that limit and use alternative means to prevent algae growth, such as using Polyquat 60 weekly (at extra cost).

With your 100+ ppm CYA, if you maintain the FC level at around 10 ppm using chlorinating liquid or bleach so as not to raise the CYA nor CH levels, then you will prevent algae growth unless the CYA level is more like 200 ppm. With your high CYA level, a high FC level will not be harsh on swimsuits, skin or hair. 10 ppm FC with 100 ppm CYA is roughly equivalent in active chlorine level to a pool with only 0.1 ppm FC and no CYA. The only issue with the higher FC level is if people were to drink very large quantities of pool water on a regular basis (which obviously they shouldn't be doing anyway).

You should get your CYA level closer to 50 ppm. You should also consider using chlorinating liquid and getting an automatic dosing system such as a peristaltic pump or The Liquidator. If you want to continue to use Trichlor tabs, then you'll need to use a supplemental algaecide such as Polyquat 60 weekly or a phosphate remover or use 50 ppm Borates. Even so, the regs will probably require you to dilute the water to keep the CYA under 100 ppm.
In spite of these facts which I have relayed in turn to the HOA board members they are insisting that we NOT reduce the water level citing water costs. They do not seem to comprehend that the CYA will not go away like chlorine does. :!:

They won't even pay for the TF100 kit which I feel will allow me to be more effective in keeping things under control. I put 2lbs and about 8oz of cal-hypo in yesterday (Sunday) morning based on the most recent chlorine levels and brushed the sides beforehand. I also put in some clarifier since there are visible particles in the water when I look at night that are just not being filtered out. By 3:30pm the water had really cleared up. But I cannot even measure the chlorine now to know whether it's correct or not. If I put enough in there it should be around 10ppm or so FC which is high-middle of the 8-13 FC range based on CYA=100.

For now the feeder is off. Unless it's valve leaks it should not be providing any chlorine. So the only chlorine added in the last week was last Sunday and yesterday. Both times I added around 2 lbs. If I could do that weekly for the rest of the summer it'd be fine actually. I still need the test kit so we don't have to rely on pool store people for the tests.

As for regulatory stuff. We are complying with local city of Houston codes that indicate we are a private pool, not either commercial nor public or semi-public. This has to do with the size of our community being 30 condos or less. They city doesn't even issue a permit for us and when requested to issue one we were told "no". So, unless we have a green pool which would be a violation of code, we're square.

State law seems to govern (semi)public pools and has little to say about private pools. And there is no CYA minimum or maximum as far as I can find in the commercial codes so that's OK too. FC is supposed to be 2ppm or more for state and local codes which is ok for us.

:lol: Our homeowners' cats sometimes drink the pool water for some reason. Otherwise I don't think we have too many people drinking it. :lol:

Thing is I've been told to keep out and we still don't have a pool service. Two relative novices who are my neighbors one being a board member (there are only three) have decided they know more about pools and to believe only those at Leslie's pools. :evil: I've tried to explain the chemistry stuff of CYA needing to be diluted by partial drain/refill and sent them both links to the pool school and such, but they both refuse to educate themselves about this. One of them was told the CYA would evaporate over time. ARG! And she believed it. There is no way I'm going to convince these two people to change to liquid chlorine if they won't even buy a test kit, but continue to rely on Leslie's for tests. I'm so frustrated with these idiots I can't think straight. :evil:

Sorry, I feel I'm ranting a little here... :oops:

I wish they would just hire someone, but even that seems to be failing because they don't want to spend the money. Does $350 a month including chemicals seem too high? I know this varies by market but is that outlandish or about average?
Money talks!? All it ever says to me is "goodbye!".
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Who to believe - "byhand" or computerized water test?

Postby chem geek » Mon 01 Aug, 2011 11:29

CYA is like salt in the water. It will not evaporate.

It sounds like you need to just get out of this situation completely since they won't listen to you or educate themselves. As for maintenance cost, it varies by area but for Houston this link gives $275, this link in 2009 refers to service costing $120-160 per month, but you should call around to different pool services and see what they charge and what they do. That is, if you still want to be involved with this anymore.

If they don't want to dilute the water, then they should consider using an algaecide such as Polyquat 60 weekly to prevent algae growth unless they are willing to have the FC level be higher, at least until they do eventually get the water diluted (perhaps from eventual rain overflow?). Does the pool have a sand filter and get backwashed regularly? If so, that can help dilute the water somewhat, though not very much. As shown here, the water rate in Houston shows that even 20,000 gallons (pretty much a complete water replacement) at the highest marginal Multi-Family (TU 18 apartments 5+ units) rate of $3.53 + $5.13 per 1,000 gallons would be around $175 maximum so I don't understand the HOA concern about water replacement cost since it is more likely to be half this amount depending on how much you dilute.

By the way, if they were to do the weekly maintenance themselves, it would only cost around $40 per month in chemicals (chlorinating liquid or bleach), assuming 2 ppm FC per day chlorine usage. However, chlorine would need to be added to the pool regularly so automation such as The Liquidator would make that easier. Of course, the easiest would be a saltwater chlorine generator, but that's more expensive in initial cost. If you wanted to use Trichlor and maintain the CYA level at around 50 ppm using water dilution and assuming 2 ppm FC per day, then you'd need to replace almost 500 gallons every day! Even maintaining 100 ppm CYA and assuming 1.5 ppm FC per day you'd still need to replace over 180 gallons per day!

If you continue to use Cal-Hypo, then you will continue to raise the CH level, though it won't rise as fast proportionately as the CYA level would rise by using Trichlor. A higher CH level will eventually lead to scaling and the pool will remain cloudy longer after Cal-Hypo addition.
Henry_R
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My Pool: HOA Community Swimming pool built approx. 1971.
In-Ground, Plaster 34x18 3.5-6' deep, Sta-rite P2R A5D-120L pump, A.O. Smith centurion 1HP (uprated 1.25HP) motor,Hayward S244S filter(new 2011), Rainbow Lifegard Chlorine/Bomine feeder; new replastered June 2010
Location: Houston, Texas USA

Who to believe - "byhand" or computerized water test?

Postby Henry_R » Tue 02 Aug, 2011 00:09

chem geek wrote:CYA is like salt in the water. It will not evaporate.

It sounds like you need to just get out of this situation completely since they won't listen to you or educate themselves. As for maintenance cost, it varies by area but for Houston this link gives $275, this link in 2009 refers to service costing $120-160 per month, but you should call around to different pool services and see what they charge and what they do. That is, if you still want to be involved with this anymore.

If they don't want to dilute the water, then they should consider using an algaecide such as Polyquat 60 weekly to prevent algae growth unless they are willing to have the FC level be higher, at least until they do eventually get the water diluted (perhaps from eventual rain overflow?). Does the pool have a sand filter and get backwashed regularly? If so, that can help dilute the water somewhat, though not very much. As shown here, the water rate in Houston shows that even 20,000 gallons (pretty much a complete water replacement) at the highest marginal Multi-Family (TU 18 apartments 5+ units) rate of $3.53 + $5.13 per 1,000 gallons would be around $175 maximum so I don't understand the HOA concern about water replacement cost since it is more likely to be half this amount depending on how much you dilute.

By the way, if they were to do the weekly maintenance themselves, it would only cost around $40 per month in chemicals (chlorinating liquid or bleach), assuming 2 ppm FC per day chlorine usage. However, chlorine would need to be added to the pool regularly so automation such as The Liquidator would make that easier. Of course, the easiest would be a saltwater chlorine generator, but that's more expensive in initial cost. If you wanted to use Trichlor and maintain the CYA level at around 50 ppm using water dilution and assuming 2 ppm FC per day, then you'd need to replace almost 500 gallons every day! Even maintaining 100 ppm CYA and assuming 1.5 ppm FC per day you'd still need to replace over 180 gallons per day!

If you continue to use Cal-Hypo, then you will continue to raise the CH level, though it won't rise as fast proportionately as the CYA level would rise by using Trichlor. A higher CH level will eventually lead to scaling and the pool will remain cloudy longer after Cal-Hypo addition.
I am going to try and stay out of it, but it's hard to watch a train wreck and not render aid. :silent:

Yeah, I know CYA will not evaporate. But the people who have taken control of the maintenance of the pool are so pigheaded that they won't listen. From everything I've read the only way to reduce it is to dulute.

I don't know if they're even looking for a pool service and I have no desire to do someone else's job anymore.
Our problem has been that no one calls back at this time of year. When we completed remodel of the pool last year we only had 5 companies who even showed up to bid or called back, out of 20 we called. That same thing is the issue we have now too; no return calls or standing us up. And the ones who do bid over bid and are hence unaffordable. They seem to see a condo association and think we have infinitly deep pockets. We have not budgeted for >$500 per month that we've been getting. The last one bid $350 + chemicals. Our HOA has other expenses and so the budget is tight.
These two things are preventing our finding a pool service to properly maintain this pool. :problem:

The water bill information is interesting. :o I was under the impression it was more than that to fill the pool. Last year we saw a $1000 rise in our water bill following the replaster when we filled it up. I attributed it to the refill of the pool but perhaps not. Problem is our overall water bill still runs $1500+ per month which comes out to $50 per unit. This is perceived as expensive when a private home would pay only $20 or so and so the Board are being tight about the water.

The chlorination is going to continue to be via cal-hypo 73% until someone tells these novices otherwise they won't listen to me anymore. I will not be able to explain the need to use liquid if I cannot even get them to buy a proper test kit. :evil: These people have no care to listen to my information since they've convinced themselves the people at Leslie's know best. :evil:

The tablet feeder if off and will remain off for now unless someone changes it or the valve is leaking(?).

As for a Liquidator or SWG, not a chance they'll spring for either one. Either would require us to rewire the service panel for capacity too. These are 40+ year old condos with 12 or 14ga aluminum wire mostly and Federal Pacific Electric (FPE) service panels. I think we have a double-pole 20A breaker for the pump, but it might be a 30A. The panels use Stab-lok connections and breakers are expensive. Also, these units were originally master-metered and the dim-bulbs who installed individual meters we have placed them butted together as many as four with no clearance between them. The panel for the pump is sandwiched between two other panels which would make it more expensive to upgrade.

[off topic]
Is it normal to have to routinely drain the pool due to high CYA? Do people normally have to do this when they use tablets? The reason I ask is in 18 years of living here I've never until now seen pool water level drained and then replaced. We've been using 3" trichlor since I began helping in 2009, but perhaps the chlorine was maintained some other way in the past? There was a tablet feeder installed so I ass-u-med that that was the way to go and probably had alway been but now I'm not so sure. The pool service we used when I first moved here in 1993 was a single individual who shocked the pool heavily once weekly. He'd been servicing the pool probably since the mid-70s or early 80s. In 2007 the management company we had at the time changed to another service when the man kept overfilling the pool and leaving the hose on plus his price went up.

In 2009 that service was let go for various things including leaving the gate unlatched in violation of city code and possibly using chemicals improperly. Under their tenure the plaster degraded rapidly and began to
fall off in chunks which is how we ended up having to replaster. Since June of last year following the replater the pool service we hired used 3" tablets and added them as needed as well as cal-hypo and perhaps some other non-chlorine based sanitizer too. We didn't begin to have any issues until March/April this year when people started using the pool. We have two algae blooms in three weeks time in April (After Easter for two weeks) and another over Memorial Day weekend. All of the incidents included the tablet feeder going empty and the pool man not getting ahead of it before it got out of hand. And in both cases when the pool man tested the water we had large excesses of phosphates >1000ppm. He used phosphate reducer, chlorine etc and it took days to bring it under control. He was fired during the last incident three weeks ago when he failed to return repeated urgent phone calls about the pool being green which began our servicing the pool ourselves. First thing we did was test the water. TC was near zero, CYA was >100 and phosphates were >1000ppm as I said at the beginning of this thread.

So why did the CYA jump up all of a sudden? If the tablet feeder is set too high for days would that perciptate high CYA? I know the man had the feeder set to a lower setting and had to turn it up some to keep chlorine levels normal. The notes the pool man was leaving indicated normal stabilizer in the 60-70ppm range so I'm trying to figure out what went wrong. Where did it get out of control that required draining to get it down?

Anyway, the reason I'm asking all this is that the Board members who have lived here as long as I have and having never seen the pool drained/refilled routinely they hence conclude it's unnecessary and refuse to allow it. Therefore if we use the feeder they're not going to understand the procedure necessary to keep CYA from rising too much. So they only way to chlorinate is going to be through cal-hypo of which we have about 40lbs left out of a 50# bucket. [/off topic]
Money talks!? All it ever says to me is "goodbye!".
chem geek
Pool Industry Leader
Pool Industry Leader
Posts: 2381
Joined: Thu 21 Jun, 2007 21:27
Location: San Rafael, California

Who to believe - "byhand" or computerized water test?

Postby chem geek » Tue 02 Aug, 2011 13:17

Henry_R wrote:Is it normal to have to routinely drain the pool due to high CYA? Do people normally have to do this when they use tablets?
:
All of the incidents included the tablet feeder going empty and the pool man not getting ahead of it before it got out of hand. And in both cases when the pool man tested the water we had large excesses of phosphates >1000ppm. He used phosphate reducer, chlorine etc and it took days to bring it under control. He was fired during the last incident three weeks ago when he failed to return repeated urgent phone calls about the pool being green which began our servicing the pool ourselves. First thing we did was test the water. TC was near zero, CYA was >100 and phosphates were >1000ppm as I said at the beginning of this thread.

So why did the CYA jump up all of a sudden? If the tablet feeder is set too high for days would that perciptate high CYA? I know the man had the feeder set to a lower setting and had to turn it up some to keep chlorine levels normal. The notes the pool man was leaving indicated normal stabilizer in the 60-70ppm range so I'm trying to figure out what went wrong. Where did it get out of control that required draining to get it down?

As for the CYA level in pools, the answer depends on the specific environment for the pool. Water dilution can occur from summer or winter rains where the water overflows and gets auto-filled, for example. There is a slow breakdown of CYA by chlorine, though that's usually only a few ppm per month. If a pool is let go over the winter with the chlorine getting to zero, then bacteria can convert CYA into ammonia creating a huge chlorine demand upon opening though sometimes other bacteria convert the ammonia to nitrogen gas while algae use it for growth. So some people find that most or all of the CYA is gone when they open the pool in the spring. However, this is not a consistent effect. Also, some parts of the country have short swim seasons so there is less CYA buildup. Also, as the CYA level rises, the amount of chlorine loss from sunlight drops so one might only add 20 ppm CYA per month instead of 35.

High CYA levels do not necessarily mean algae will grow. Algae needs nutrients to grow so if the phosphate or nitrate levels are low then the algae won't grow (or won't grow as quickly -- note that phosphate removers only remove inorganic orthophosphate and do not remove organic phospahtes that algae can still use, albeit slowly, to grow). If there are algeacides being used (Polyquat, linear quats, copper ions, borates) then algae growth can be prevented in spite of high CYA levels.

Obviously, his phopshate remover either didn't remove enough phosphate or more got added to the pool.

As for CYA jumping, unless it was test error (and test strips are HORRIBLE for CYA testing), remember that for every 10 ppm FC added by Trichlor it also increases CYA by 6 ppm. So even at 2 ppm FC per day chlorine usage, that's over 35 ppm CYA PER MONTH increase.

The problems with Trichlor and increasing CYA are the number one reason there are tens of thousands of pool owners on multiple pool forums desperate to get out of the loop of having to buy more and more algaecides, phosphate removers, copper ion products, etc. from pool stores in the endless and expensive game of preventing algae. When these people then find out how quickly Trichlor (and Dichlor) increase CYA and how much that reduces chlorine's effectiveness (unless the FC level is proportionately raised), then these people are really ticked off that the pool stores didn't tell them the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth! Trichlor is very convenient, but that convenience comes at a cost. It's fine to use if one understands the trade-offs and how to mitigate the issues, but for many homeowners adding chlorinating liquid or bleach every day or two is OK while for others they get The Liquidator or peristaltic pumps or a saltwater chlorine generator (SWCG).

Note that The Liquidator does NOT require any power. It uses the suction from the pump for its water flow.
Henry_R
Swimming Pool Pro
Swimming Pool Pro
Posts: 126
Joined: Fri 20 Mar, 2009 21:41
My Pool: HOA Community Swimming pool built approx. 1971.
In-Ground, Plaster 34x18 3.5-6' deep, Sta-rite P2R A5D-120L pump, A.O. Smith centurion 1HP (uprated 1.25HP) motor,Hayward S244S filter(new 2011), Rainbow Lifegard Chlorine/Bomine feeder; new replastered June 2010
Location: Houston, Texas USA

Who to believe - "byhand" or computerized water test?

Postby Henry_R » Tue 02 Aug, 2011 17:48

chem geek wrote:
Henry_R wrote:Is it normal to have to routinely drain the pool due to high CYA? Do people normally have to do this when they use tablets?
:
All of the incidents included the tablet feeder going empty and the pool man not getting ahead of it before it got out of hand. And in both cases when the pool man tested the water we had large excesses of phosphates >1000ppm. He used phosphate reducer, chlorine etc and it took days to bring it under control. He was fired during the last incident three weeks ago when he failed to return repeated urgent phone calls about the pool being green which began our servicing the pool ourselves. First thing we did was test the water. TC was near zero, CYA was >100 and phosphates were >1000ppm as I said at the beginning of this thread.

So why did the CYA jump up all of a sudden? If the tablet feeder is set too high for days would that perciptate high CYA? I know the man had the feeder set to a lower setting and had to turn it up some to keep chlorine levels normal. The notes the pool man was leaving indicated normal stabilizer in the 60-70ppm range so I'm trying to figure out what went wrong. Where did it get out of control that required draining to get it down?

As for the CYA level in pools, the answer depends on the specific environment for the pool. Water dilution can occur from summer or winter rains where the water overflows and gets auto-filled, for example. There is a slow breakdown of CYA by chlorine, though that's usually only a few ppm per month. If a pool is let go over the winter with the chlorine getting to zero, then bacteria can convert CYA into ammonia creating a huge chlorine demand upon opening though sometimes other bacteria convert the ammonia to nitrogen gas while algae use it for growth. So some people find that most or all of the CYA is gone when they open the pool in the spring. However, this is not a consistent effect. Also, some parts of the country have short swim seasons so there is less CYA buildup. Also, as the CYA level rises, the amount of chlorine loss from sunlight drops so one might only add 20 ppm CYA per month instead of 35.

High CYA levels do not necessarily mean algae will grow. Algae needs nutrients to grow so if the phosphate or nitrate levels are low then the algae won't grow (or won't grow as quickly -- note that phosphate removers only remove inorganic orthophosphate and do not remove organic phospahtes that algae can still use, albeit slowly, to grow). If there are algeacides being used (Polyquat, linear quats, copper ions, borates) then algae growth can be prevented in spite of high CYA levels.

Obviously, his phopshate remover either didn't remove enough phosphate or more got added to the pool.

As for CYA jumping, unless it was test error (and test strips are HORRIBLE for CYA testing), remember that for every 10 ppm FC added by Trichlor it also increases CYA by 6 ppm. So even at 2 ppm FC per day chlorine usage, that's over 35 ppm CYA PER MONTH increase.

The problems with Trichlor and increasing CYA are the number one reason there are tens of thousands of pool owners on multiple pool forums desperate to get out of the loop of having to buy more and more algaecides, phosphate removers, copper ion products, etc. from pool stores in the endless and expensive game of preventing algae. When these people then find out how quickly Trichlor (and Dichlor) increase CYA and how much that reduces chlorine's effectiveness (unless the FC level is proportionately raised), then these people are really ticked off that the pool stores didn't tell them the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth! Trichlor is very convenient, but that convenience comes at a cost. It's fine to use if one understands the trade-offs and how to mitigate the issues, but for many homeowners adding chlorinating liquid or bleach every day or two is OK while for others they get The Liquidator or peristaltic pumps or a saltwater chlorine generator (SWCG).

Note that The Liquidator does NOT require any power. It uses the suction from the pump for its water flow.
I don't think the last poolman was using strips. I remember him using a computerized device actually.
And what looked to be a DPD test kit. We are in the worst drought in years and pollen was very high in the spring. At the time the pool man accounted these two things as reason for high phosphates and algae blooms.
I don't know what he used for phosphate removal, but he was surprised that it was so high and did it three times.

I just wonder how the pool was maintained all those years before 2008 without having issues.

The managment are still refusing the do more than use Leslie's Pool store personnel advice. :evil:

I'm being blamed for doing nothing more than keeping the pool healthy to swim in AND using the chlorine feeder which I was given tablets for and told to use after we drained the pool partially. I'll take that blame however if it means nobody got sick whilst I was doing the work. There is a large misconception about whether the pool will pop out of the ground if we drain/refill again which is part of the issue over and above the water bill. We are in a persistant drought in east Tx and in particular Houston. We are 30+ inches BELOW normal in rainfall. Is there much likelyhood of the pool popping from partial draining?

Interesting abuot the liquidator. Does it require space? There is limited room for any equipment. There was a pool building with the pump, filter, etc year ago. It was torn down in 1999 and what they did was build a steel cage around the equipment barely larger than that needed for the motor, pump and filter. We had to have it cut to even remove the old filter so it could be replaced. It doesn't matter. If they won't even buy a test kit they're not going to spring for this either. :evil: Thank you for all your help and advice.
Money talks!? All it ever says to me is "goodbye!".

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