Broken pipe? Filter full of sand!

[ppritchard]

Our pool stopped priming -- did all the normal things with O rings etc.
Opened the filter (haywood paper 1200) and it was "packed" with sand. So much so that I had to wrestle the filter out of the mire.

So, I'm guessing that I have a broken pipe and the pump has pulled the sand in along with the water until it clogged up the filter and probably some of the lines.

I have a main drain, the skimmer line and a spa drain. Since I was monkeying with all of them trying to get the prime, the break could be in any one of them.

What do I do? I've just washed the sand out of the filter, drained it. Likely, I will cut open the piping from the pump to the filter to see if it is full of sand, guessing it will be.

Any ideas on what to do next??

[CGPoolman]

Are you losing any water out of the pool? If you aren't, you may not have a broken pipe. I would think if a pipe was broken (especially the bottom drain line) you would be losing a noticeable amount of water from the pool.

Before you cut into any plumbing, I would try to isolate the source of the sand. You have 3 suction lines - I would close off 2 and let the pool run off one line at a time to see if you can figure out where the sand is coming from.

For example - close off the spa suction and pool skimmer, and let the system run for 5-10 minutes. Check the filter and see if it is drawing in sand. Do the same for the other 2 suction lines.

-CG

[ppritchard]

Thanks.
Pool is Not losing any noticeable amount of water.
I believe the sand came through the skimmer line.
I have only the main drain on now and there doesn't seem to be any sand coming from there.
Not sure why I'm not losing any water from the skimmer if it does have a break, unless it is clogged?

It has taken several days to get all of the sand out of the pool, just now looking near normal.
Really don't want to lose the skimmer, but I'm afraid to turn it back on and have the problem again.

this is a link to a picture of the sand clog in the filter originally.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff18 ... d28911.jpg

[CGPoolman]

WOW!! I've seen a lot of filter clogs, but never saw one like that!

You've confirmed that you aren't losing any water from the pool, so I feel safe to say you don't have a broken pipe. If the skimmer line were cracked/broken, the water level in the pool would have dropped to the bottom of the skimmer by now.

Next thing I would do - Right now you are only pulling suction from the pool drain? I would open the skimmer valve about 1/3 of the way and let it run for a while. If you don't notice any sand, open it a little more. If you still aren't pulling any more sand you can assume the drain and skimmer lines are clear and move on to check the spa suction.

Is your pool screened in? The only thing I can think of off the top of my head is someway somehow a large amount of sand got dumped into your pool, or directly into the skimmer.

-CG

[ppritchard]

Thanks again.
Pool is screened, no bodies of sand anywhere nearby. You can tell from the picture that this is consistent sand similar to what might have been used to fill the area around the inground pool construction (20 years ago).

Probably right to move slowly to the other drain lines. I might try the spa first though, since it is a shorter run and IF it is the culprit, likely less damage to occur than with the much longer skimmer line.

What about some shop vac type of action on the skimmer drain? I don't have the normal pool vacuum lines since I've always had a Polaris.

[CGPoolman]

I wouldn't bother with the shop vac, unless you can see a clog in the skimmer when you take the basket out. Best thing you can do is let the pool system run and let the sand work its way out of the system. How is the filter looking? I would imagine you might still be getting small amounts of sand until it flushes out of the pipes. As long as you can draw water from all of your suction lines you'll be OK.

-CG

[ppritchard]

Yes, there was sand throughout the pool so it has slowly worked it's way out. Cleaning the filter frequently helped. Now, just some small sand spots and the polaris should be able to either stir them up for the drain or suck them up. I've added a nylon stocking to the polaris to help grab the finer sand grains.

Tried the spa drain by itself, it worked fine and no sand into the filter so that means it was definitely the Skimmer that delivered the sand. I haven't tried the Skimmer yet since I've been trying to get the existing sand out of the pool. Miss the skimming action though for floating stuff.

Filter looks ok, but pressure is only 5-6 when it's always been 8-10 -- I think the heavy sand may have broken some paper lines and is allowing the flow to keep the pressure low. Plan on getting a new filter this coming week.

Since I've had things apart, now I'm getting mutiple leaks -- one at the water "outlet" pipe on top of the pump and then the polaris booster pump is now leaking at the same water outlet top pipe as well as the shaft. I have a repair kit somewhere for the shaft leak, just need to find it.

Also, when I did the spa "only" test, there were no bubbles in the pump strainer but when I do the drain, it has a fair amount of air at the top of the strainer basket lid. I suppose that points to a leak somewhere along the suction pipe to the main drain?

What about trying to flush, with a water hose the skimmer line back to the pump strainer, I could take the lid off so it would not go on into the pump (if sand gets pushed out)?

again, thanks for any insights

[ppritchard]

If I use one of the bladder type water hose connections and put it into the skimmer drain, what would be the best way to protect the pump from any sand?

I was thinking about removing the Jandy valve cover thinking that the water etc. would go out the opening rather than into the pump. Or taking the pump strainer lid off and let the water flow out there. Thoughts?

[ppritchard]

Did the hose into the skimmer deal, water ran clear out of pump end.

Tried the skimmer drain with the pump and almost immediately you could see sand coming into the pump basket. So the break/leak is definitely in the skimmer piping.

What is the best way to repair this when it runs under concrete?

[CGPoolman]

There's a company called American Leak Detection that serves the Orlando area, that might be your best bet. If there's a break or leak under the concrete, or under the ground for that matter - they can find and fix it. They have some pretty high-tech stuff that can pinpoint a leak underground. Their services aren't cheap, but I like that option better than trying to tunnel under the pool trying to find the leak yourself.

My opinion - if the pool level isn't dropping I wouldn't think you have a break in the plumbing. It is possible you pushed sand towards the pump with the hose, then pulled it the rest of the way when the pump turned on. Have you left the skimmer running to see if the sand stopped coming through?

-CG

[ppritchard]

No, I haven't let the pump run very long with the skimmer open. That picture of the original problem has me worried about what damage I might do. It took me a while to clean up the original mess.

You are right though about the water level. I do think it is dropping, but not a a very fast rate.
Definitely has not leaked down to the skimmer level (yet).

I will likely try the pump/skimmer again to see if the sand clears.

Thanks

[ppritchard]

OK, so I tried the skimmer again and within seconds the sand started flowing through the system and out of the jets into the pool. Obviously there is a major problem along the skimmer piping. So, I've shut the skimmer off and am just using the main drain until I can find out about relining the skimmer pipe Or some other fix.

[CGPoolman]

I'm sorry to hear there is still an issue with the sand in the pipe. If sand was also blowing back into the pool, this makes me think you also have a hole or a tear in your filter cartridge that is allowing the sand to pass thru the filter and back into the pool. This could be making things look a lot worse than they are.

At this point, I can make 2 suggestions.

1) Use a line genie (hydraulic line flusher). It looks like a rubber boot that screws on to the end of your hose. With the system turned off - Take the lid off the pump and Insert the boot into your suction line with only the skimmer valve open so you can force water in the opposite direction, back thru the pipe and out the skimmer. This will force any sand in the skimmer pipe to bubble up out of the skimmer. I would think at some point the sand is going to stop flowing. Then you can manually scoop most of the sand out of your skimmer and keep it out of the filter. You need a new filter cartridge since you have debris blowing back in, so there is not much point in trying to filter it out, or replacing the filter until you have eliminated the sand.

2) While I am still not convinced you have a broken pipe, you can always try a company like American Leak Detection and have them pressure test the lines to check for cracks/leaks.

Best of luck, I know how frustrating this can be!

-CG

[ppritchard]

Finally got around to putting a "plug" in the skimmer.
That stopped the leakage.
I am confident now that the leak is underground along the skimmer line.

I've read about pipe liners that go inside the old pipe to repair underground leaks.

Anyone had any experience with those, or is there some other approach that would work, really miss the skimmer function.

thanks,
ppritchard

[ppritchard]

nobody has used the pipe liner type of fix?