The vf pump v flotsam

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ddalehileman

The vf pump v flotsam

Postby ddalehileman » Thu 23 Sep, 2010 11:25

We are considering the replacement of our 1 hp pump with a vf to save on the electric bill. However we're concerned that the lower rate of surface flow might not effectively conduct flotsam to the skimmer port as our Better Half is fussier than I upon this issue, still egoist that I am hoping its cleanliness might better appeal to the occasional guest while we're unwilling to perform the task manually and anyhow might forget

One vf owner reports that he addresses this apparent deficiency by running his vf at high speed for a couple of hours a day. As we run our existing pump only three hours anyhow, then it would seem the vf would offer little or no advantage

So we are soliciting comments on this matter from vf owners or other knowledgeable sources--thanks all


chem geek
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The vf pump v flotsam

Postby chem geek » Thu 23 Sep, 2010 14:04

Is your pool very small? 3 hours may not even be one turnover of the water. With the IntelliFlo VF, you would likely run at a very low and economical speed, but for longer to get to one turnover. You could even split into multiple pumping times over day and night so you don't have too much time with dead circulation to help distribute chemicals to keep the pool free of algae.

If you are only running your 1 HP for 3 hours a day, you probably aren't spending that much on electricity anyway, are you?
dalehileman

The vf pump v flotsam

Postby dalehileman » Thu 23 Sep, 2010 15:57

chem geek wrote:Is your pool very small?

35,000 gal

3 hours may not even be one turnover of the water.

Probably not, geek, but after 13 years at this rate everything seems ok though after occasionally experiencing a bit of algae I've recently taken to a mild shock once a week with good luck so far but we shall see

With the IntelliFlo VF, you would likely run at a very low and economical speed, but for longer to get to one turnover.

So I understand, the electricity consumption of course disproportionally smaller. However my concern at the moment is the effect of the lower rate on the motion of surface flotsam

You could even split into multiple pumping times over day and night so you don't have too much time with dead circulation to help distribute chemicals to keep the pool free of algae.

If I do switch to vf ad if I am forced to acquire a pump with all the necessary electronics I will most certainly consider your suggestion. But the practice wouldn't help much with the flotsam as we use a solar cover

If you are only running your 1 HP for 3 hours a day, you probably aren't spending that much on electricity anyway, are you?


That's the point of my thread. If I change to vf but still find I have to run it at high speed when I wish to clear flotsam then the vf might not provide much of a saving if any at all
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mas985
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The vf pump v flotsam

Postby mas985 » Thu 23 Sep, 2010 17:07

35,000 g pool and a 1 HP pump should have a turnover about 7 hours. You are turning over your pool less than a 1/2 turnover per day. I'm surprised that you don't have a lot of floaties. Also, circulation is not just about filtering the water it is also about mixing it to keep the chlorine evenly distributed. UV will slowly degrade chlorine, depending on CYA level, so if you are not mixing up the pool, parts can have significant drops in the chlorine level.

But on to energy savings.

Even if you set up the VF to run those same 3 hours at the same flow rate as your 1 HP (2980 RPM), then you would still save you about 7% in energy costs simply because the VF is more efficient at the same flow rate. However, if you just ran the VF two hours at 2980 RPM and four hours at 750 RPM, then you would save over 30% in total energy costs.

But all of this is moot since you say you use a solar cover so your skimmers really don't work well anyway. So you could just run the entire time at 750 RPM if you wanted and save 80%.
Mark
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lbridges
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Location: Space Coast, Florida

The vf pump v flotsam

Postby lbridges » Thu 23 Sep, 2010 17:52

ddalehileman wrote:...
So we are soliciting comments on this matter from vf owners or other knowledgeable sources--thanks all


And on another forum you are talking trash about the VF not being suitable for use in the desert environment.

So which is it; you don't know the VF, or you are an expert in the VF and just foolin' with the guys like mas985?

Or is it you are a lonely, lonely, troll (dalehileman quote:"...I've found opinions proffered on pool boards pretty cut-and-dried and have often been disappointed at the lack of controversy therein...)?
simiguy

The vf pump v flotsam

Postby simiguy » Thu 23 Sep, 2010 22:09

I think Dale shows promise at his thoughtful consideration of the problems. Howsomeever, I have to wonder if Dale's "Better Half" would prefer a low electric bill and occasionally asking Dale to do some skimming, vice a high electric bill and reportedly a small surface particulate count. Gotta give him credit for the exhaustive research, and his not being satisfied with 1 or 2 (or 50) testaments to the benefits of the Intelliflo!
dalehileman

The vf pump v flotsam

Postby dalehileman » Fri 24 Sep, 2010 15:49

Simi you're quite right about that and if a vf provides anywhere near the reputed saving I'd very seriously consider manually scooping. However I'm still leery about the vastly complex semiconductor microelectronic and power switching semiconductors that seem totally unnecessary and hoping in the meantime that the Industry might offer a 4-speed vf with of course conventional speed-control switch but none of the electronics

But thank you for your support in this prodigious maelstrom of pseudonymous aspersion
lbridges
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Location: Space Coast, Florida

The vf pump v flotsam

Postby lbridges » Fri 24 Sep, 2010 16:50

simiguy wrote:I think Dale shows promise at his thoughtful consideration of the problems....


Ah, but you seem not to have visited other sites where he visits (until banned) making outlandish claims that he never backs up and/or he deliberately introduces topics to see if he can generate controversy (by itself nearly a definition of a troll). My favorite is his claim to have written a 77,000 word document, all in single syllables.

From the wiki (not a great source, but...) "...a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum..." See my quote above - it's not his first time. If you would like a list of links outlining examples, please PM me.

Edit: Before I through in the towel on dalehileman, I will offer one alternative challenge. Mr Hileman professes to be a retired engineer. Given his critique of electronics design, I presume him to have electrical engineer credentials. So, if he can produce an outline of how he would go about proving causality in Coulomb's Law (not the whole thing mind you, just a rational outline), I will apologize here and backtrack to any other site where we may have exchanged barbs. I would offer to review his text, but my writing skills are very much in question when compared to my engineering/science skills. I'll even give a hint, it's a homework problem from Jackson's text on electricity and magnetism - I forget the chapter/edition, but hey, it is a hint.
dalehileman

The vf pump v flotsam

Postby dalehileman » Sat 25 Sep, 2010 10:28

bridge I'm flattered by all the attention
Are you by chance acquainted with one waterbear
simiguy

The vf pump v flotsam

Postby simiguy » Sat 25 Sep, 2010 13:25

Hmmm. So lbridges, there's an educational requirement to post on a pool forum? Well, certainly I would fail as I really stopped at being a Maxwellian and still search endlessly for a GUT. But I digress. I do own a smallish pool (14k gal), and have been VERY impressed with the reduction in consumption that I've been able to achieve with the installation of the Intelliflo VS - on the order of $95 / month in overpriced SCE territory. Nonetheless, I was a skeptic until I saw compelling evidence on You-Tube (search "Intelliflo") - however, I have to admit an educated individual like yourself would find all sorts of flaws in the experiment - like the failure of the video to actually derive the equations vs rely solely on empirical evidence - and further the BLATANT disregard for consideration of whether the water that Dale has (given all of its apparent plant life) should be modeled as a Newtonian fluid or a Non-Newtonian fluid. However, I really hope to take this opportunity to further encourage Dale to explore to his heart is content, and then settle on the fact that minimalism is best and the excess consumption of his purportedly 10 year old pump is equivalent to driving an oil leaking, gas gulping Hummer at 115mph across an area known for the presence of desert tortoise while randomly shooting at the wild hares, jackalopes and meth heads.

Cheers.
dalehileman

The vf pump v flotsam

Postby dalehileman » Sat 25 Sep, 2010 15:48

Thank you again simi for your patient indulgence in this cacophony of unbridled antagonism

Admittedly the savings seem promising though I'm pretty well resigned to the idea I shall have to skim the flotsam manually

However still wondering whether any participant might have encountered a 4-speed vf with manual switch but no electronics (I do know of such a unit but it's two speed and though its owner claims significant saving, I was hoping for one providing even slower settings)

Incidentally speaking of the flow setting to anyone who has switched to vf but who is also using using a Polaris booster, curious to learn whether your vf set to its lowest speed delivers enough flow to accommodate your booster, especially using a sand filter or the like putting up some resistance. Though I've been assured that it does I'm nonetheless a bit skeptical If flow rate at the output of the filter is lower than required by the booster then a negative pressure might develop

Reason for concern: If it sucks air the booster can quickly self-destruct. Thus interested to hear from you if you have such a system and whether as a precautionary measure you might also have installed a pressure gage at that point
lbridges
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Posts: 119
Joined: Sat 05 Dec, 2009 17:25
My Pool: Geometric 16K gal shotcrete w/exposed aggregate; Pentair EasyTouch w/wireless, 2 Intellibrites, VS-3050 pump, C&C 200 Filter, IC-40 SWG; Heliocol solar. Rocky's reel
Location: Space Coast, Florida

The vf pump v flotsam

Postby lbridges » Sat 25 Sep, 2010 22:29

simiguy wrote:...So lbridges, there's an educational requirement to post on a pool forum? ...Cheers.


Can't recall I ever said there was one - can you point me to a thread in which I so stated?

I gave a relatively easy way for him (based on his claimed credentials) to have me publicly admit I was wrong. You choose to ignore some facts and attack me, not sure why, but that's OK.

I have no objection to dalehileman informative or inquisitive posts anywhere.

I gave you some reasons on why dalehileman tends to troll behavior, included a quote from him, as well as definitions on the subject to support why I did that so that readers could judge for themselves. So, simiguy, Is there a requirement for me not to post information about posts that indicate troll behavior?

BTW, I suspect you are also dalehileman, so adios.
Handy Dandy

The vf pump v flotsam

Postby Handy Dandy » Sun 26 Sep, 2010 01:27

Dale's ability to reiterate the problem in a myriad number of ways is a testament to his exceptional intelligence and perseverance in the face of almost insurmountable obstacles. In all Dale's trials, I imagine that he feels encouraged and sometimes even upheld by a secret force within. I do not claim that the portrait I present here is a true one, only that it comes close.

If the truth is left in darkness, errors will be committed. The guilty one is not he who commits the errors, but the one who causes the darkness. Dale merely seeks the more honest and noble truth, yet he is tormented by those who do not wish to suffer the wrenching, cataclysmic changes that would be wrought by such truth.

Dale does his level best to face the endless small ignominies that arise from his persistent search for the best way to exist within this mortal coil. All things considered, Dale, there is nothing to fear from these people. People are all too often ignorant of things they ought to know. Sooner or later, the splendid question of universal education will take its position with the irresistible authority of absolute truth.

I, for one, am inspired by Dale's heroic search for the truth. He's probably a nameless, faceless nobody toiling away deep in the bowels of some institutional hellhole. Perhaps they have him shoved in some sort of makeshift office that doubles as a supply closet where vats of leaky chemicals slowly, inexorably eat away at what's left of his sanity. Perhaps different chemicals affect different parts of his brain. Perhaps the turpentine targets his amygdala, the ammonia targets his prefrontal cortex and the unidentified container of viscous green goo targets his thalamus. Who knows, and who cares? Alone and forgotten, he stoically endures, even when it takes every ounce of his willpower not to scale the nearest clock tower and express his rage in the most brutal fashion.

I imagine that he loads up his Daffy Duck Pez dispenser every morning with extra strength Thorazine and begins popping them as fast as he can in a desperate attempt to ward off an impending full psychotic break.

Perhaps he goes home alone to his dingy little apartment and cries himself to sleep after eating a cold can of beans and reading a good book, his only respite from an otherwise horrifying nightmare of a life.

Maybe he comes on these boards in a last ditch effort to assuage his guilt over a life of dreams unfulfilled and opportunities wasted. Perhaps if he could only find the answers to a few simple questions, he could feel as if his life actually had some sort of meaning. Is it really too much to ask that someone exude even the most minute amount of compassion or empathy for Dale before he is once again thrust into the gaping maw of an unrelentingly oppressive reality?
dalehileman

The vf pump v flotsam

Postby dalehileman » Sun 26 Sep, 2010 10:24

Thank you Handy for a rare tribute in this cosmos of relentless derision
dalehileman

The vf pump v flotsam

Postby dalehileman » Sun 26 Sep, 2010 10:34

Meantime however reiterate my contention that flow rate might be critical with auxiliary connections at outflow so eager to hear from anyone having actualized such an installation--again thanks all

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