Pristine Blue

[chem geek]

This link is an example of the consequences of claiming to be a disinfectant (as opposed to simply using a chemical that is registered pesticide).

You can use this link to search the pesticides database. Earth Science Laboratories, Inc. that makes PristineBlue has firm number 64962. You can use this link to search for specific product registrations. This page lists the registrations for that company. Good luck in finding PristineBlue in that list -- if you know the EPA registration number, then that can help. They could just be riding on the use of copper sulfate which is generally registered as a pesticide (algaecide, not disinfectant).

To be continued on the next post since there is a limit of 5 URLs per post...

[chem geek]

This link lets you look up info on any of the registered pesticide chemicals. This link is for copper sulfate and note that the word "disinfectant" is not listed and that for water uses it is an algaecide only, not a disinfectant. Now look at this link for calcium and sodium hypochlorite and notice that it IS a disinfectant and used for swimming pools and spas, among other things. Bromine is described as a disinfectant here. PHMB (biguanide/Baqua) is described here.

To be continued on the next post since there is a limit of 5 URLs per post...

[chem geek]

I don't have time to go through the entire long list and unfortunately I could not find an explicit list of DIS/TSS-12 items. There aren't that many "alternatives" so its easier to just look them up such as copper that I did above or silver here though silver does kill bacteria faster than copper (though copper is better against algae) and is mentioned as a disinfectant for pools, BUT...

This link is a response from the EPA referring to Zodiac Pool Care (makers of Nature2) where the Zodiac Nature product that uses silver and copper was claiming to kill bacteria and the EPA keeps telling them over and over again that their product can only claim the product is effective when used with a registered chlorine product. This is specifically in regard to DIS/TSS-12. Read the document's "VI. Conclusions and Recommendations" section carefully. Silver and copper alone do not kill bacteria quickly enough to be used alone as a swimming pool disinfectant. The only allowed claim is an an algaecide, though that is shown in the other links I gave above (i.e. this document doesn't say that explicitly). This link is another mineral product with silver (not copper) that requires at least 0.5 ppm chlorine to be used with it.

Now remember that DIS/TSS-12 has a laboratory test that is extraordinarily difficult to pass. In fact, if the test were done properly with Cyanuric Acid (CYA) in the water, then even chlorine products would not pass this test -- as little as 5 ppm CYA would cause chlorine products (at 1 ppm FC) not to pass. Instead of a 99.9999% (6-log) kill in less than 30 seconds, a more reasonable limit would be something like 99% (2-log) in around 1 minute (or less) since that is still very likely to prevent person-to-person transmission of pathogens (bacteria and viruses). For 99% kill of Stretococcus faecalis, with 3 ppm FC with 30 ppm CYA (technically, an FC that is roughly 10% of the CYA level) it takes less than a minute while with 1 ppm FC and 100 ppm CYA (the current extreme limit in most standards) it takes between 4-9 minutes (see this link). Silver would have a kill rate that might be in that 10-20 minute range, but copper would be slower -- though both would kill 50% faster than bacteria reproduce (which is roughly 15-60 minutes generation rate) except they don't inactivate viruses very effectively. Therefore, mineral ion systems can be seen as an insurance policy to prevent uncontrolled bacteria growth, but should not be seen as fast-acting sanitizers since they most likely do not kill fast enough to prevent person-to-person transmission.

To be continued on the next post since there is a limit of 5 URLs per post...

[chem geek]

The only exception to the 3 EPA-approved sanitizers that I am aware of is the use of silver with non-chlorine shock (potassium monopersulfate, MPS) at hot water temperatures in hot tubs. This link is to the EPA registration info on Nature2 when used with MPS. This post of mine on another forum talks about how technically this may work.

In this post on another forum I list hot tub rash/itch/lung incidents in an attempt to roughly determine the cause, though clearly it's very anecdotal and not scientific. It looks like the lack of a fast-acting sanitizer is the primary reason and that using a mineral ion system (i.e. silver and/or copper) reduces but does not eliminate the risk. I would guess that if you use a mineral ion system and don't use a fast-acting sanitizer during or after a soak, then bacteria shed from your body can form biofilms before getting killed and then they are resistant to subsequent attack even if chlorine is then used. There also seemed to be a risk when using Dichlor-only for more than a month or two and that's most likely due to the buildup of Cyanuric Acid (CYA) since for every 10 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) added by Dichlor, it also increases CYA by 9 ppm.

In this post on this forum, I give some more details about copper kill times.

Richard

[SPA GUY]

I would like to say a few things regarding mineral products versus chlorine which kills many harmful water-borne contaminates, parasites and disease-causing pathogens that would otherwise make us sick.  The EPA requires a concentration of 0.2 ppm (parts per million) of chlorine in all tap water in the United States, with the average being closer to 4 ppm.



Of course there is a price to pay for disinfecting our water, chlorine is responsible for many harmful affects.  It's same harsh nature that allows it to kill the bad things in our water has the same effect on our hair and skin.  Attacking our cells like the poison that it is.  More importantly, it binds to organic material in the water to create something called disinfection byproducts (DBP).  These byproducts have been linked to birth defects and cancer and count in the thousands of different types of compounds.  Chloroform is a known toxin that is a trihalomethane (THM), a type of DBP that is linked to liver and kidney cancer, as well as miscarriages and birth defects.  Now, water treatment professionals are constantly detecting, tracking and monitoring these DBP's in our water supply and looking for ways to reduce them. Bathing in a hot tub filled with chlorine enters your body 2 ways, through your skin and through breathing.

I agree that with most mineral systems, kill rates are slower but I'd rather take my chances soaking in minerals than I would chlorinated water. I am involved with Humanitarian groups and have been involved with a company that has been in research, development and patent work for years with the goal of creating the first mineral sanitizer. We have used their product in third world countries to help combat water born diseases. Their problem was not attaining kill rates and log reductions necessary to get EPA approval as a sanitizer, they have those. It was getting through the politics that are involved with big businesses and the EPA. I along with others have used their product to help combat water born diseases in 3rd world countries with unbelievable results. I along with the former head (retried) of water quality for the state health department use their product in our hot tubs. I have found it to be the easiest and best product I have ever used. It is a copper/silver/organic formula, which is patented, so it is unlike any other product I have seen.

The product has multiple complexants which inhibit calcium, iron, rust and scale buildup and it has a pH anchor incorporated all into one product. I've been telling them to sell their product to hot tub users directly to help fund their humanitarian efforts. Dealer's won't want to carry it because it is too cost effective and eliminates the need to buy a multitude of other products. There product eliminates the need to buy and add multiple products which are expensive and most people find too hard to balance. I was a manufacturer of Aquatic exercise pools, have been a hot tub dealer, pool builder and have been in and out of the pool and spa industry for almost 20 years so I am very familiar with most of the products that are being used.

Now back to chlorine, most commercial pools across the country have the same common problems, one being high pH ... typically they are in a range of 8 and above when tested. What this does, is cause chlorine to at 8 ph levels chlorine has become 80% less effective in killing pathogens. At 8.5 ph the chlorine has lost 95% of its effectiveness.

So what does this mean? If you have high pH in your hot tub, your chlorine is not working well enough to kill bacteria and viruses and we are poisoning our bodies while soaking in a toxic bath of chemicals. With minerals and in conjunction with small does of chlorine I have never had any issues contracting bacterial infections and I have used one product for the past 10 years. Unfortunately it is not available yet. I am trying to convince the manufacturer to distribute their product in the hot tub industry ... I love it when we read what all of these so called experts state on blogs telling us that we should be using chlorine due to it being an EPA approved product.I find that almost comical, if you call your local health officials and speak to them regarding water quality, you will find out the people who test the public facilities typically won't let their own children use them, do you know why? ... ask them and you will get the same answer ... HIGH CHLORINE LEVELS and HIGH PH LEVELS, that pose a health risk due to lack of sanitation. When they do have the PH levels balanced the Chlorine levels are too high ... they know that the toxicity of those bodies of water are more likely to be unsafe than safe or they won't take the risk of letting their own children swim in them ...read about the dangers chlorine poses to swimmers ...
http://swimming.about.com/od/allergyand ... roblem.htm

The University of Arizona did a test and recommends dual sanitation using minerals with Chlorine, here's their report on the the advantages of using a dual stage method of sanitation
http://algaebar.com/algaebar/report.html

[SPA GUY]

I would like to say a few things regarding mineral products versus chlorine which kills many harmful water-borne contaminates, parasites and disease-causing pathogens that would otherwise make us sick.  The EPA requires a concentration of 0.2 ppm (parts per million) of chlorine in all tap water in the United States, with the average being closer to 4 ppm.



Of course there is a price to pay for disinfecting our water, chlorine is responsible for many harmful affects.  It's same harsh nature that allows it to kill the bad things in our water has the same effect on our hair and skin.  Attacking our cells like the poison that it is.  More importantly, it binds to organic material in the water to create something called disinfection byproducts (DBP).  These byproducts have been linked to birth defects and cancer and count in the thousands of different types of compounds.  Chloroform is a known toxin that is a trihalomethane (THM), a type of DBP that is linked to liver and kidney cancer, as well as miscarriages and birth defects.  Now, water treatment professionals are constantly detecting, tracking and monitoring these DBP's in our water supply and looking for ways to reduce them. Bathing in a hot tub filled with chlorine enters your body 2 ways, through your skin and through breathing.

I agree that with most mineral systems, kill rates are slower but I'd rather take my chances soaking in minerals than I would chlorinated water. I am involved with Humanitarian groups and have been involved with a company that has been in research, development and patent work for years with the goal of creating the first mineral sanitizer. We have used their product in third world countries to help combat water born diseases. Their problem was not attaining kill rates and log reductions necessary to get EPA approval as a sanitizer, they have those. It was getting through the politics that are involved with big businesses and the EPA. I along with others have used their product to help combat water born diseases in 3rd world countries with unbelievable results. I along with the former head (retried) of water quality for the state health department use their product in our hot tubs. I have found it to be the easiest and best product I have ever used. It is a copper/silver/organic formula, which is patented, so it is unlike any other product I have seen.

The product has multiple complexants which inhibit calcium, iron, rust and scale buildup and it has a pH anchor incorporated all into one product. I've been telling them to sell their product to hot tub users directly to help fund their humanitarian efforts. Dealer's won't want to carry it because it is too cost effective and eliminates the need to buy a multitude of other products. There product eliminates the need to buy and add multiple products which are expensive and most people find too hard to balance. I was a manufacturer of Aquatic exercise pools, have been a hot tub dealer, pool builder and have been in and out of the pool and spa industry for almost 20 years so I am very familiar with most of the products that are being used.

Now back to chlorine, most commercial pools across the country have the same common problems, one being high pH ... typically they are in a range of 8 and above when tested. What this does, is cause chlorine to at 8 ph levels chlorine has become 80% less effective in killing pathogens. At 8.5 ph the chlorine has lost 95% of its effectiveness.

So what does this mean? If you have high pH in your hot tub, your chlorine is not working well enough to kill bacteria and viruses and we are poisoning our bodies while soaking in a toxic bath of chemicals. With minerals and in conjunction with small does of chlorine I have never had any issues contracting bacterial infections and I have used one product for the past 10 years. Unfortunately it is not available yet. I am trying to convince the manufacturer to distribute their product in the hot tub industry ... I love it when we read what all of these so called experts state on blogs telling us that we should be using chlorine due to it being an EPA approved product.I find that almost comical, if you call your local health officials and speak to them regarding water quality, you will find out the people who test the public facilities typically won't let their own children use them, do you know why? ... ask them and you will get the same answer ... HIGH CHLORINE LEVELS and HIGH PH LEVELS, that pose a health risk due to lack of sanitation. When they do have the PH levels balanced the Chlorine levels are too high ... they know that the toxicity of those bodies of water are more likely to be unsafe than safe or they won't take the risk of letting their own children swim in them ...read about the dangers chlorine poses to swimmers ...
http://swimming.about.com/od/allergyand ... roblem.htm

The University of Arizona did a test and recommends dual sanitation using minerals with Chlorine, here's their report on the the advantages of using a dual stage method of sanitation
http://algaebar.com/algaebar/report.html

[chem geek]

You are mixing up unstabilized chlorine in drinking water with stabilized chlorine in pools and there is a HUGE difference between them (assuming you aren't drinking pool water in large quantities regularly). With drinking water, you have lots of time to disinfect the water, but in commercial/public pools and spas you want to kill pathogens quickly to prevent person-to-person transmission. Also, when there is Cyanuric Acid (CYA) in pool or spa water, most of the chlorine is attached to the CYA and is almost completely inactive. It gets released according to the laws of chemical equilibrium, but chlorine bound to CYA essentially does not kill pathogens and is a very weak oxidizer. The active chlorine in the water is hypochlorous acid and at the levels of Free Chlorine and CYA recommended as a minimum (an FC that is 7.5% of the CYA level), this has the same hypochlorous acid level as an FC or 0.06 ppm with no CYA so is very low. This is known science since at least 1974 as determined by this scientific paper.

As described in this link, CYA skin absorption is minimal so it is unlikely that the chlorinated isocyanurates (chlorine bound to CYA) is absorbed through the skin.

It's not just the slow kill times from silver and copper against bacteria, but the fact that metal ions are not effective (at pool concentrations) at inactivating viruses. For example, this paper shows that copper ions do a 90% inactivation of Herpes Simplex Virus in 30 minutes at 100-200 ppm, but that is far, far higher in concentration than found in pools (copper is usually < 0.3 ppm in pools). This paper shows that silver ions have virtually no effect on vacciniavirus, adenovirus, VSV, poliovirus, HVJ, but that with herpes simplex virus there is a 5-log kill in 60 minutes (roughly a 90% kill in about 5 minutes), but at over 3200 ppb compared to the usual limit of 20 ppb to prevent silver staining.

(to be continued...too many URLs)

[chem geek]

(continued from above)

You can read more about copper/silver ion systems and why they are not used in public/commercial pools on their own on the Australian APVMA website. There are no standalone copper or silver ion systems that pass the U.S. EPA DIS/TSS-12 due to their slow kill times and all copper/ion systems certified by NSF Standard 50 require a minimum of 0.4 ppm chlorine or 0.8 ppm bromine.

As for disinfection by-products (DBPs), these are a concern but are mostly correlated in concentration with bather load so are a far worse problem in commercial/public pools with high bather load and especially with indoor pools that don't have UV in sunlight, have worse air circulation, and usually don't use CYA so the active chlorine (hypochlorous acid) concentration is 10-20 times higher than it needs to be.

As for high pH, that is wrong -- it can absolutely be managed easily. Hypochlorite sources of chlorine have a high pH, BUT the consumption/usage of chlorine is an acidic process that counteracts that initial pH rise. So over time, the pH can be stable and the primary cause for rising pH is too high a TA level since higher TA means more carbon dioxide in the water and that outgasses faster causing the pH to rise. In my own pool, I use only 12.5% chlorinating liquid at a rate of around 1 ppm FC every day (I have a mostly opaque pool cover and the pool is used every day for a few hours) but the pH is stable where I add a small amount of acid every month or two. If the consumption/usage of chlorine were not acidic, I'd have to add chlorine at least every week. Thousands upon thousands of pool and spa owners are able to maintain their pools and spas without a big pH rise in spite of using hypochlorite sources of chlorine, though they need to lower their TA levels to do so (some use 50 ppm Borates as an additional pH buffer).

Also, higher pH does not reduce the active chlorine level as much when CYA is present since CYA acts as a hypohclorous acid buffer. This is just one of many misconceptions that are clarified in this post.

If you were to offer a product such as enzymes that would oxidize bather waste before chlorine reacts with such waste and if such enzymes were selective enough to not oxidize skin or be otherwise irritating and if such enzymes were reasonably resistant against breakdown from chlorine, then THAT would be a great product as it could allow chlorine to sanitize while significantly reducing the DBPs.

Richard

[lbridges]

...
The University of Arizona did a test and recommends dual sanitation using minerals with Chlorine, here's their report on the the advantages of using a dual stage method of sanitation
http://algaebar.com/algaebar/report.html

That actually isn't a U of Arizona report, and it's a collection of data points selectively pieced together by a company making a profit on the use of mineral systems.

Have you ever read the studies on the danger of Dihydrogen Monoxide (which is even more dangerous in it's gaseous form)? I refer you to the dhmo.org site which in part states:

What is Dihydrogen Monoxide?
Dihydrogen Monoxide (DHMO) is a colorless and odorless chemical compound, also referred to by some as Dihydrogen Oxide, Hydrogen Hydroxide, Hydronium Hydroxide, or simply Hydric acid. Its basis is the highly reactive hydroxyl radical, a species shown to mutate DNA, denature proteins, disrupt cell membranes, and chemically alter critical neurotransmitters. The atomic components of DHMO are found in a number of caustic, explosive and poisonous compounds such as Sulfuric Acid, Nitroglycerine and Ethyl Alcohol.

For more detailed information, including precautions, disposal procedures and storage requirements, refer to one of the Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) available for DHMO:

* Kemp Compliance & Safety MSDS for DHMO
* Chem-Safe, Inc. MSDS for Dihydrogen Monoxide
* Applied Petrochemical Research MSDS for Hydric Acid
* Original DHMO.org Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) for Dihydrogen Monoxide (html)

***************************

The above info is 100% true . I close in noting that Dihydrogen Monoxide is in EVERY pool and spa (chlorine or mineral), it's even found in lakes and ponds not to mention what comes out of the kitchen tap.

[chem geek]

I have an updated post showing the kill times of chlorine vs. copper and silver. PristineBlue® is copper ions only. It's not just that copper ions kill slowly, but they do not kill the coliform fecal bacteria of Escherichia coli, Enterococcus faecalis and Staphylococcus aureus at all because the concentrations of copper ions in pools and spas is far too low. These bacteria have mechanisms for dealing with low levels of copper ions because they must cope with that in the G.I. tract of the human body. Though these bacteria are a part of us, they are pathogenic and kept in balance by other bacteria (see this link) such as fidobacterium bifidum.

The websites promoting metal ions as a sole source of chlorine-free protection often refer to the killing power of solid copper and of copper's in use in hospitals and other areas (at much higher concentrations than found in pools or spas), but that is not the same as the low concentrations used in pools which are inherently limited by the 1.3 ppm EPA drinking water limit and the potential for staining plaster surfaces so usually the concentrations are around 0.4 ppm or 0.8 ppm at the most.

[rain]

Pristine Blue is actually a great product. It is not just for pools. You can use it to store large amounts of drinking water safely. It does not dissipate from sunlight, evaporation, or water loss. You can get in the water right away after using it. It is a natural water softener, won't dye hair green, and is not irritating to eyes/skin. I love it it cost less than all the stuff you need for a chlorine pool. The part I love the most is its so safe and so easy to use, I never have to worry about my pool anymore. I can leave for 2 weeks and know everything will be fine when I come back.

A+ from me on this product...

[chem geek]

"rain",

Are you a shill for PristineBlue? The copper ions will generally prevent algae growth so your pool might look clear and safe, but it isn't. In fact, all EPA-registered copper products for swimming pools had to go through a re-registration process because they were playing it fast and loose making bacterial kill claims that were not true. No copper product (or silver product or combination) has passed the stringent EPA DIS/TSS-12 criteria that must be passed if a product is to make any pathogen kill claims.

Copper is a pesticide and is EPA registered, but for swimming pool use it is ONLY registered as an algaecide, not as a disinfectant. After the re-registration, PristineBlue and other similar metal ion products had to change their websites, product labels, marketing literature, etc. to no longer make the false and deceptive claims of being a disinfectant or generally killing bacteria. Look at the PristineBlue website today and see where it now says:

PristineBlue® is used to control algae and nonpublic health bacteria, and bacteria that cause odor problems in residential swimming pools, spas, and hot tubs.

and

PristineBlue®, the cornerstone of the system, is an environmentally friendly algicide and bactericide*.
:
*Nonpublic Health Bacteria

Now you might ask "what are nonpublic health bacteria"? The answer is that these are bacteria that do not cause disease in humans. In other words, PristineBlue cannot claim to kill bacteria that actually matter in pools such as the fecal bacteria Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Enterococcus faecalis and Staphylococcus aureus as well as the common bacteria found in dirt and on skin Pseudomonas aeruginosa (at least for some phenotypes). In small quantities, such bacteria are not generally harmful (except possibly to those with compromised immune systems), but with uncontrolled bacterial growth, they can overwhelm the immune system and become an issue.

In addition to not being effective against killing fecal bacteria, copper ions are also either ineffective or very very slow to inactivate viruses including Herpes Simplex Virus (HSV), Vacciniavirus and Poliovirus. Even for Influenza virus, chlorine inactivates it 100 times faster than copper (at concentrations used in pools) where chlorine (with an FC that is roughly 10% of the CYA level) takes 6 minutes for a 99.9% kill while copper ions would take 10 hours for the equivalent kill. Basically, you can't count on copper ions to prevent person-to-person transmission of disease which is why it (or metal ions in general -- copper or silver) is not allowed to be used in ANY commercial or public pool in the U.S. without an EPA-approved disinfectant. It is also not allowed to be used in commercial/public pools by itself in Canada, Australia and in most countries in Europe. Australia tried using copper/silver systems as an alternative and they weren't sufficient so they took specific actions as described here. Canada here explicitly warns consumers not to use copper sulphate products by themselves.

As I've noted before, don't be deceived by the copper ion product references to SOLID copper being used for disinfection. That operates with a completely different mechanism and concentration and is not what is done in pools. As for drinking water disinfection, it is silver ions or copper/silver ion combinations that are used, not copper alone (except as solid copper containers). With drinking water you have plenty of time to kill bacteria even if it's a slow process. You do not have that time in swimming pools where someone else has a potential disease they can transmit to you via the water and metal ions do not do well against most viruses (and those aren't an issue in drinking water since they don't reproduce without a host). And you have to use either solid copper or have silver so that you can kill fecal bacteria, even slowly.

The only EPA-approved disinfectant product chemicals are chlorine, bromine and Baquacil/biguanide/PHMB for swimming pools and spas as well as Nature2 with MPS for spas only (since it requires hotter spa temperatures to be effective).

Also, if you don't use any sort of oxidizer in your pool, then your pool will build up with the chemicals from your sweat and urine. You will be swimming in your own urea, ammonia, creatinine and other chemicals because copper ions are not oxidizers and do nothing to these chemicals.

Of course, you can do whatever you want with your private residential pool. The government only regulates what pesticide products can claim, but they do not prevent you from using solely these products or even no products at all in your pool. It's similar to regulating commercial kitchens to not allow an uncooked chicken to be left on a cutting board for hours and to then cut vegetables on that board. In your own kitchen, you can do whatever you want -- if you get sick, that's your own business. And before you say something like you've never gotten sick, I kept track of reports of hot tub itch/rash/lung on a hot tub forum and some of these were from spas that used "alternative" systems instead of EPA-approved disinfectants (and one's using EPA-approved disinfectants had let their active levels get close to zero). I'm not saying that you are going to get sick. I'm saying that it's a statistical game of roulette and you increase your odds by not using a fast-acting disinfectant.